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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:41:49 +0200
From: alex bodnaru <alexbodn AT 012 DOT net DOT il>
Subject: Re: smallest set of files needed
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hi guenter,

please don't take it as a flame, but an effort to put things into
proportion.

c is definitely a language designed for programers, but not so dificult
to learn and use.

programming is a very time consuming activity, so that the effort to
install a development environment is only a small initial investion.

by far, the djgpp compiler set for c + rhide are a very useful, rich
featured and quite easy to use, all expanding to less than 30M. it could
run under dos, windows, os/2, linux and every dos emulator on a 386
machine or better.
as your friend will become more knowlegeable, he/she might make a far
better suited choice, but here is a quite good point to start from.

best regards,

alex


Sterten AT aol DOT com wrote:
>  >> But it's clear now, that GCC/DJGPP is not a good choice to do
>  >> this.
>  >Why?  Too big?
>  
> too big, too many files, too complicated the installation,
> too difficult to explain to someone who is not a programmer.
>  
>  >> So, is there another compiler which someone can recommend for this
>  >> purpose ?
>  >
>  >Okay, I'll list the reduced files for OpenWATCOM.  I'm not sure if
>  >it is really any smaller...
>  >
>  >> (easy to install, handles basic C-commands, few and short files,
>  >>compatible,
>  >>  free from copyright/license etc.)
>  >
>  >I have yet to see a Public Domain C compiler.  Everything has some
>  >type of restriction...  And, if it doesn't, it is usually too
>  >incomplete to be useful.
>  
> C is the most standard language, I think. Used for most University
> research. Lots of software has been written in C. So we should have
> this compiler already. It should even be included in the OS.
> If it isn't there, then something must be wrong with the
> whole computer busyness. (IMO)
>  
>  >> I would even accept if only a subset of C-commands is compiled
>  >> and speed is not so important.
>  >
>  >You can also use CIL (C Intermediate Language) (link below) to
>  >simplify C code as much as you want.  CIL is a C to C "translator"
>  >used to eliminate coding errors but also reduces complexity and
>  >posix code to simpler code.
>  >
>  >>But it should have good compatibility
>  >> with GCC/DJGPP.
>  >
>  >Not likely, due to POSIX, unless you switch to Linux.  There are
>  >alot of simple C compilers for Linux e.g., TCC by F. Bellard (links
>  >below).
>  
> I don't know about Linux. Maybe it was a mistake not to choose Linux
> in the first place, but now I'm too lazy to change.
>  
>  >Sincerely,
>  >
>  >Rod Pemberton
>  >
>  >
>  >To use the reduced file sets for WATCOM, you'll need to put these
>  >in a .bat file and run it:
>  >SET WATCOM=C:\WATCOM
>  >SET EDPATH=C:\WATCOM\EDDAT
>  >SET INCLUDE=C:\WATCOM\H;C:\WATCOM\H\NT
>  >
>  >A minimal set of files for DOS RM OpenWATCOM:
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wcc.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wcl.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlink.lnk
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wstub.exe
>  >C:\watcom\h\*.h
>  >C:\watcom\h\sys\*.h
>  >C:\watcom\lib286\dos\clibs.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib286\dos\emu87.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib286\dos\graph.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib286\math87s.lib
>  >
>  >A minimal set of files for DOS PM OpenWATCOM:
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wcc386.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wcl386.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlink.lnk
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk
>  >C:\watcom\binw\wstub.exe
>  >C:\watcom\h\*.h
>  >C:\watcom\h\sys\*.h
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\dos\clib3r.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\dos\clib3s.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\dos\emu387.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\dos\graph.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\math387r.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\math387s.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\math3r.lib
>  >C:\watcom\lib386\math3s.lib
>  
> why don't they put these into one file ?
>  
>  >Simple C compilers for DOS:
>  >
>  >smallC86 and smc88dos from here:
>  >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/download/
>  
> link doesn't work
>  
>  >smc386c will could easily be retargetd to tasm, etc...
>  >http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~vitchev/smallc-i386.html
>  
> smc386c.c doesn't compile with gcc3.2
>  
>  >CIL (C Intermediate Language)
>  >CIL (C Intermediate Language)  http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/
>  
> no compiler. And tons of documentation to read
>  
>  >There is some limited 16bit support for DJGPP
>  >
>  >DJGPP's gcc patches/djlink/nasm
>  
> link doesn't work
>  
>  >http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/djlink/
>  
> I don't understand this. What is it ? And it seems that you need
> a compiler anyway.
>  
>  >http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/
>  
> "This is not for the average programmer. This stuff does not install
>   easily and doesn't work well yet! Don't use unless you are prepared
>   to fix any bugs you find yourself."
>  
>  >Simple C compilers floating around the internet that should compile
>  >for Linux:
>  
> no Linux
>  
>  >Small C by Ron Cain (large number of microprocessors)
>  >FBCC and TCC by Fabrice Bellard
>  >BCC by Bruce Evans (from ELKS)
>  >Linux's Dev86 (from ELKS)
>  >OXCC C Compiler by Norman Culver
>  >PCC by C Ware Corporation
>  >Pacific C by Hitech Soft
>  >Amsterdam Compiler Kit
>  >Micro C by Dave Dunfield
>  >OSD (includes C compiler) by Chris Giese
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if programmers could attach their source and
> their compiler to the executables and people could easily edit
> the executable - even non-programmers (e.g. output commands or
> other simple things).
> And then the changed executable could be run to recompile itself ?
>  
> 
> Imagine this newsgroup-dialogue :
> Q:
>  >can I change the size of the monster in the upper right corner
>  > in level 7 of game xyz ?
> A:
>  > load xyz.exe into your editor and replace the 5 in line 745 by an 8
>  > and then recompile by running "xyz -compile".  xyz.exe will change itself
>  > with the new monster included. You can recover the old version,
>  > "xyz -old"
>  
>  
>  
> -Guenter.

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