Message-ID: <003b01c0bf8b$fe77d740$b608e289@mpaul> From: "Matthias Paul" To: References: <20010329 DOT 000143 DOT -163043 DOT 1 DOT domanspc AT juno DOT com> Subject: Re: [off-topic] shutting down Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 19:53:57 +0200 Organization: Rechenzentrum RWTH Aachen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by delorie.com id NAA03798 Reply-To: opendos AT delorie DOT com On 2001-03-29, Robert W Moss wrote: This is going to be very off-topic, Iīm afraid, but I can no other but comment on it... Sorry... > AFAIK an internal modem uses no (minuscule) power unless it > is turned on and you are on-line. External modems would only > use 9 watts when you are using them on-line, otherwise they > most likely use less then one watt of standby power. Modems and most other external components are not the major power consumers, of course, so at the first glance it might be more important to have very good standby modes for monitors (standby/ suspend ca. 0,5-30W, in operation typically 100-200W), (laser) printers (up to kilowatts when in operation), and the computer itself (typically 150-300W in operation), but since there are so many other small devices in standby or suspend mode all the time (VCRs, hifi equipment, TV sets, radio clocks, phones, answering- and fax-machines, active loudspeakers, ...), their total power consumption *is* significant. In Germany we say: "Kleinvieh macht auch Mist." ("Even small cattle produces some manure.") Also, these small devices usually have extremely inefficient transformer power supplies, and often no true mains switch any more. > With computer prices being as low as they are, and big businesses > replacing all of their work stations after three years, it doesn't make > sense to most of the bean counters to worry about saving money by turning > off the complete system when you are not using it. Most IT managers in > large Corporations just tell every user to turn it on in the morning and > off when you go home, just logging off of the network when you leave your > work station. Even worst, recently I had a discussion with someone in our datacenter who asked me not to switch off the computer and monitor over night because he was afraid, it could get damaged. He stated, that the monitor (a five year old quality 15" model) would go into suspend and only the LED on the front panel would continue to dim. It was very difficult to convince him that he was wrong, because he couldnīt follow me, as he had no imagination whatsoever of the inner components of a CRT... Only after I brought in a meter to actually measure the power consumption in suspend mode he suddenly became quiet: That monitor took 37 W in suspend mode, even more than I had expected! Even today most monitors take at least 5 W in suspend mode, Eizo/Hitec monitors are one of the few exceptions I am aware of with just 0,5 W. Unfortunately, there are many people out there without even a basic knowledge of electrical engineering... (Just check it out yourself, a simple meter will give you a good approximation, but for accurate results you will need a true RMS meter. You can also ask your power provider to lean you a power monitor plug for a symbolic fee, so you can get a better picture of the true power consumption of all the devices in your office or household. You can also get them in most electronics shops, but make sure you get one that has a resolution of at least 1 W and is able to measure downto 1 W, otherwise itīs useless when you want to measure in standby or suspend modes.) Of course, it *will* damage a desktop computer or a CRT monitor if you permanently switch it on and off every few minutes, but if you switch it on/off in terms of hours, thereīs no recognizable shortage in its operating life (even if you speak of 5-10 years). In this respect there even isnīt much difference between going into suspend mode or completely disconnecting the mains. > This works great in the USA, until this year, especially > in California, where the electric bills went up over 200% > for a lot of people at home and more for businesses. AFAIK the problem in California is that they have reached the upper limit of what their power stations can provide, rather than that they would force usage of regenerative energy now. But otherwise: Very good!!! Well, it shouldnīt be only a question of money, but humans tend to start thinking only when it hurts, and higher bills always hurt... It works with fuel as well as with electricity. Nothing is moving without any kind of pressure... Not that we would not have similar acceptance problems over here, but what you are describing is what many Europeans view as "typical American donīt care attitude", it is a pitty... Fact is, weīre all sitting in the same boat, and we are *all* responsible for it, and these problems can only be solved globally... It took almost two decades, but quite many people over here are "awake" now and are actively trying to change it to the better, while according to the news and various discussions there appears to be still "deepest winter" in the States, unfortunately - just thinking of the World Climate Summitt... This bill is just not balanced. With more than 6 billion humans on this planet (and extrapolations for up to 12,5 billions in about 200 years), we just cannot continue with hunting and collecting (that is "consuming") like we did it for the past few 100.000 years. It will come back to us (that is "humankind"), and if not us, then at least our children will have to pay the price for our ignorance. For example, have you ever thought of the fact, that according to the statistics (estimates from 1998) natural oil will be available only for another 45 years on earth, already counting in new deposits that still have to be found and an assumed progress of efficiency in using it? Consider that humans use it for just about one century now in contrast to the millions of years that were necessary for it to develop. Well, natural gas and coal will probably last a bit longer (65 years and ca. 200..500 years respectively), so this is nothing we should be worried about, I guess, in particular since we have Uranum left for at least 6.000..8.000 years... ;-> > When the cost of power goes up the ATX systems will > come in handy when set properly to turn off or go on > standby after a period of no activity. > > Ain't Technology Grand? Am I missing a subtle kind of irony here? Advanced *dynamic* power saving technologies in hard- and software are a good thing in general to reduce the overall power consumption of a device, but they a question of smart ecologic design. I donīt think that it is a good idea to leave an increasingly large number of devices running in standby or suspend modes rather than actually disconnecting the mains, when they are not used. When I switch off my computer (non-ATX), it will consume 0,00 (in words: zero) Watt. Just my opinion. Matthias ------------------------------------------------------------ Matthias Paul, Ubierstrasse 28, D-50321 Bruehl, Germany http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs180/mpdokeng.html ------------------------------------------------------------ My homepage has moved, please update your pointers.