X-Apparently-From: <pmoran22 AT yahoo DOT com>
Message-ID: <00b701c09482$683b7400$29822a40@dbcooper>
From: "Patrick Moran" <pmoran22 AT yahoo DOT com>
To: <opendos AT delorie DOT com>
References: <000201c0946b$54e3ca40$1bb4abd4 AT WhiteDragon>
Subject: Re: Hard Disk 20gb and dos
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:13:48 -0700
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Try using DRDOS   FDISK /X  and see if you can change your partitions.

Question:  Why would anyone want to make a 2GB FAT 16 partiton? You will =
probably waste 2/3 to 3/4 of the space or even more depending on the =
number of files because of slack space. The maximum you can make with =
DRDOS is 2GB because the maximum DOS cluster size is 64 sectors per =
cluster. This is 32KB per cluster. You will waste on average 16KB per =
file on the drive. If you only had 20,000 files on a 2GB partition you =
would waste 320MB of space and a lot more with all of those little files =
that are less than 8KB. =20

If you plan on storing large files such as MP3s, MPEGs, AVIs, etc on a =
2GB partition then that would be fine. That is what I use my about 650MB =
partition for. I don't have 10,000 to 50,000 files on it. My actual DOS =
partitions for DOS and DOS apps and data files are 70+ MB and 255MB on a =
345MB IDE drive (329MB formatted.)=20

This has always been one of my gripes about PC DOS from the very =
beginning of using IBM PCs. FAT 16 and FAT 12 partitions are so =
wastefull. Back in my early days of IBM PCs I had a Seagate ST-251 which =
I RLL'd to about 64MB and made two 32MB partitions and used Disk Manager =
to force 512 Byte clusters. Starting with DOS 3.3 the default was 4 =
sectors per cluster as the smallest, but you could FDiSK it with Disk =
Manager and change it to 1 sector per cluster @ <32MB, 2 sectors per =
cluster @ <64MB. There is a point where adding more space to a partition =
under FAT 16, that you can actually lose usable space.=20

I figure that to be partitions of 512MB or greater. People would buy =
those 540MB drives and make a single partition out of them. By simply =
not using the last couple of megabytes of drive space, they would =
actually gain useable space and could store more files. (540MB is about =
514MB formatted.) If you would like to see this, there is a program =
called DRVSLACK.EXE that will show exactly how much space is being =
wasted. It is small enough that I could attach it to a message to this =
list if anyone wants it. It is only 7KB unzipped, probably half that =
zipped.

On the 650MB partition I am using 400MB and am wasting 9MB and would =
only waste 1MB if I divided it up into 255MB partitions. That is 9 times =
the waste and would be a lot more than that if these were typical DOS =
files. These are large zip files with a few small text files and zip =
files, etc. but mostly large zip, rar, etc. Driveslack will also show =
you how much will be wasted for 2k, 4k, 8k and 16k clusters. That way =
you can see what would be gained by making smaller partitions.

This is how my C: drive looks:

total        77,721,600
free           9,715,712
used       65,599,249

cluster size 2k

used      67,766,222
slack       2,170,023

cluster size 16k

used      86,573,056
slack     20, 978,807

Notice I would need another 9MB of space than what I have and have none =
left over with 16k clusters. Drive Slack only shows to what it would be =
up to 16k clusters. It does not show 32k clusters, but each step up is a =
little over double the last step. so 32k clusters would probably be =
around 45MB of wasted space. That is more than half. If I unzipped the =
files I have zipped on this drive (docs for PKZIP, ARJ, LHA, and a bunch =
other as well as the TIDs for DOS and Personal Netware and many others, =
as these are fairly large, it would be much worse.)=20

I figured it out once and found that with everything unzipped and using =
a 540MB drive partitioned into a single drive, I would waste well over =
half the space and if I just wasted the extra 2MB of space on a 540MB =
drive I would lose less than 1/4 of the drive space! i.e. I would gain =
over 135MB of space and if I divided it into two partitions of 255MB =
each, I would only lose about 10% of space and gain a whopping 300MB of =
space or something close to that. 32K clusters would be even worse.

I also force FAT 32 to 1K clusters. I can do that with DRDOS 7.03 FDISK. =
That prbably is not neccessary because WINDOZE crap is so bloated =
anyway, there isn't that much room fo slack space! Remeber a game called =
LOAD RUNNER for the Commodore C-64? It was also available for the APPLE =
][. You could run that game on a 32KB computer with DOS loaded. The IBM =
DOS version was in the 100K's range and the WINDOZE 95 version is in the =
megabytes!!!!!! Talk about bloated!!!!!! BTW that game would run after =
it was loaded on an APPLE or Commodore without having to leave the =
diskette in the drive! i.e. the whole program was loaded into memory =
(IIRC.)

Pat

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: White Dragon=20
  To: opendos AT delorie DOT com=20
  Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 12:50 PM
  Subject: Hard Disk 20gb and dos


  First of all, hello to everybody. This is my first day here.
  I've got a Western digital 20gb 7200 rpm (i think it belongs to the =
"caviar" series...).
  4 years ago i had a 80mb ibm (My beloved ps2 386!!!) and ms-dos 6.22. =
So i decided to install that dos again. I partitioned my hd in this way
  primary 15 gb fat32 partition
  primary 1 gb fat16 partition
  extended 4 gb fat32 partition.
  I decided to make bootable the second, becouse i had to install dos =
there. But... ms-dos fdisk doesn't recognize at all my hd. Well, exactly =
it doesn't report space in a correct way. So i tryed with dr-dos 7.03.
  This one recognize correctly all the space and partition type but it =
cannot modify them.
  I know that dos operating systems have 8.4 gb limitation, but there is =
a way to override it?
  And what if i put the fat16 partition in the first 8.4 gb (using =
dr-dos fdisk)? For example:
  primary 1 gb fat16 partition
  primary 15-19gb fat32 partition
  Well... another question. Adding fat32 drivers in the first =
installation disk would help?
  Sorry to bother all of you for such things, but i need help.
  =20
  =20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Try using DRDOS&nbsp;&nbsp; =
FDISK /X&nbsp;=20
and see if you can change your partitions.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Question:&nbsp; Why would =
anyone want to=20
make a 2GB FAT 16 partiton? You will probably waste&nbsp;2/3 to 3/4 of =
the space=20
or even more depending on the number of files because of slack space. =
The=20
maximum you can make with DRDOS is 2GB because the maximum DOS cluster =
size=20
is&nbsp;64 sectors per cluster. This is 32KB per cluster. You will waste =
on=20
average 16KB per file on the drive. If you only had 20,000 files on a =
2GB=20
partition you would waste 320MB of space and a lot more with all of =
those little=20
files that are less than 8KB.&nbsp; </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>If you plan on storing large =
files such as=20
MP3s, MPEGs, AVIs, etc on a 2GB partition then that would be fine. That =
is what=20
I use my about 650MB partition for. I don't have 10,000 to 50,000 files =
on it.=20
My actual DOS partitions for DOS and DOS apps and data files are 70+ MB =
and=20
255MB on a 345MB IDE drive (329MB formatted.) </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>This has always been one of my =
gripes about=20
PC DOS from the very beginning of using IBM PCs. FAT 16 and FAT 12 =
partitions=20
are so wastefull. Back in my early days of IBM PCs I had a Seagate =
ST-251 which=20
I RLL'd to about 64MB and made two 32MB partitions and used Disk Manager =
to=20
force 512 Byte clusters. Starting with DOS 3.3 the default was 4 sectors =
per=20
cluster as the smallest, but you could FDiSK it with Disk Manager and =
change it=20
to 1 sector per cluster @ &lt;32MB, 2 sectors per cluster @ &lt;64MB. =
There is a=20
point where adding more space to a partition under FAT 16, that you can =
actually=20
lose usable space. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>I figure that to be partitions =
of 512MB or=20
greater. People would buy those 540MB drives and make a single partition =
out of=20
them. By simply not using the last couple of megabytes of drive space, =
they=20
would actually gain useable space and could store more files. (540MB is =
about=20
514MB formatted.) If you would like to see this, there is a program =
called=20
DRVSLACK.EXE that will show exactly how much space is being wasted. It =
is small=20
enough that I could attach it to a message to this list if anyone wants =
it. It=20
is only 7KB unzipped, probably half that zipped.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>On the 650MB partition I am =
using 400MB and=20
am wasting 9MB and would only waste 1MB if&nbsp;I divided it up into =
255MB=20
partitions. That is 9 times the waste and would be a lot more than that =
if these=20
were typical DOS files. These are large zip files with&nbsp;a few small =
text=20
files and zip files, etc. but mostly large zip, rar, etc. Driveslack =
will also=20
show you how much will be wasted for 2k, 4k, 8k and 16k clusters. That =
way you=20
can see what would be gained by making smaller =
partitions.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>This is how my C: drive=20
looks:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG>total&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
77,721,600</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG>free&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
9,715,712</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><STRONG>used&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
65,599,249</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>cluster size =
2k</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><STRONG>used&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
67,766,222</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG>slack&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2,170,023=
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>cluster size =
16k</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><STRONG>used&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
86,573,056</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><STRONG>slack&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20,=20
978,807</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Notice I would need another 9MB =
of space=20
than what I have and have none left over with 16k clusters. Drive Slack =
only=20
shows to what it would be up to 16k clusters. It does not show 32k =
clusters, but=20
each step up is a little over double the last step. so 32k clusters =
would=20
probably be around 45MB of wasted space. That is more than half. If I =
unzipped=20
the files&nbsp;I have zipped on this drive (docs for PKZIP, ARJ, LHA, =
and a=20
bunch other as well as the TIDs for DOS and Personal Netware and many =
others, as=20
these are fairly large, it would be much worse.) </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>I figured it out once and found =
that with=20
everything unzipped and using a 540MB drive partitioned into a single =
drive, I=20
would waste well over half the space and if I just wasted the extra 2MB =
of space=20
on a 540MB drive I would lose less than 1/4 of the drive space! i.e. I =
would=20
gain&nbsp;over 135MB of space and if I divided it into two partitions of =
255MB=20
each, I would only lose about 10% of space and gain a whopping 300MB of =
space or=20
something close to that. 32K clusters would be even =
worse.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>I also force FAT 32 to 1K =
clusters. I can=20
do that with DRDOS 7.03 FDISK. That prbably is not neccessary because =
WINDOZE=20
crap is so bloated anyway, there isn't that much room fo slack space! =
Remeber a=20
game called LOAD RUNNER for the Commodore C-64? It was also available =
for the=20
APPLE ][. You could run that game on a 32KB computer with DOS loaded. =
The IBM=20
DOS version was in the 100K's range and the WINDOZE 95 version is in the =

megabytes!!!!!! Talk about bloated!!!!!! BTW that game would run after =
it was=20
loaded on an APPLE or Commodore without having to leave the diskette in =
the=20
drive! i.e. the whole program was loaded into memory=20
(IIRC.)</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Pat</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:white DOT dragon AT tin DOT it" =
title=3Dwhite DOT dragon AT tin DOT it>White=20
  Dragon</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:opendos AT delorie DOT com"=20
  title=3Dopendos AT delorie DOT com>opendos AT delorie DOT com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 11, 2001 =
12:50=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Hard Disk 20gb and =
dos</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, hello to everybody. =
This is my=20
  first day here.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've got a Western digital 20gb 7200 =
rpm (i think=20
  it belongs to the "caviar" series...).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4 years ago i had a 80mb ibm (My =
beloved ps2=20
  386!!!) and ms-dos 6.22. So i decided to install that dos again. I =
partitioned=20
  my hd in this way</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>primary 15 gb fat32 =
partition</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>primary 1 gb fat16 =
partition</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>extended 4 gb fat32 =
partition.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I decided to make bootable the =
second, becouse i=20
  had to install dos there. But... ms-dos fdisk doesn't recognize at all =
my hd.=20
  Well, exactly it doesn't report space in a correct way. So i tryed =
with dr-dos=20
  7.03.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This one recognize correctly all the =
space and=20
  partition type but it cannot modify them.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know that dos operating systems =
have 8.4 gb=20
  limitation, but there is a way to override it?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And what if i put the fat16 partition =
in the=20
  first 8.4 gb (using dr-dos fdisk)? For example:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>primary 1 gb fat16 =
partition</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>primary 15-19gb fat32 =
partition</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well... another question.&nbsp;Adding =
fat32=20
  drivers in the first installation disk would help?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry to bother all of you for such =
things, but i=20
  need help.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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