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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:33:10 -0800
Message-ID: <CAC4O8c_uY=5dUVUAEgehr0Z_S9ydbvxEBjpDCeO3ijPcA9kAXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] making DRC less misleading in the presence of shorts,
 non-routed rats, etc.
From: "Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
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On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak <kmk AT familieknaak DOT de>
wrote:

> Britton Kerin wrote:
>
> [automatic "optimize rats" after DRC]
> >     > The problem is it's destructive: it resets the rats > so if
> >     > the user is trying to work on a subset of the board while
> >     > sometimes doing DRC refresh it's going to be annoying.
>
> Thinking about this again, I'd say, this is a scenario which won't
> happen too often. Typically, either the layout is already completely
>

Well, it's what I always do.  I route some subset, occasionally checking
DRC to see if I've busten anything (I find auto-enforce annoying).  So it
would be very annoying for me at least.


> routed but needs some modifications. Then there are not so many rats
> to begin with. Or you are doing a portion of the layout for the first
> time. Then the tracks should automatically conform to the currently
> set design rules. So there is no much incentive to fire the design
> rule checker in the first place.
>
> That said, why not put a check button in the DRC window to
> activate/deactivate automatic "update rats"?
>

This is probably not a bad idea.  It's still slightly weird in that it globs
together a bunch of otherwise unrelated code (high interface-implementation
divergence).


> > The problems with this are:
> >
> > * unless you do a lot of work to do the above stuff, the results of
> > the checks still won't make it into the DRC window, you'll just get
> > messages
> > and maybe a little bit of orange on the main display.
>
> This is (much) better than the current nothing. After all, connection
> check never gives you more than messages in the log and a little bit
> of orange in the main window.
>
> > * it's not obvious how to do it for non-gtk.
>
> Uh, the same as for GTK: Put a check button in the DRC results dialog
> to activate automatic connection check.
>

lesstif doesn't have a DRC dialog, it just present violations one at a time.
So you have to set and view this state somewhere else.


> > An pop-up dialog to
> > choose this each time would be really annoying
>
> Why a pop-up?
>

That's what it would be for lesstif


>
> > * it's still a lot more trouble than the one-liner even ignoring
> > these issues
>
> IMHO, the resulting UI improvement is worth the effort. I have seen
> more than one shorted board because the user failed to do a final
> connection check before exporting gerbers.
>

Was the user new to gEDA, or not?
My expectation is that experienced users always finish up watching the
message log.
It becomes your normal flow and isn't something you have to remember.
That's how
it is for me anyway and I'm not generally much good at remembering things,
normally
I always make code to remember for me when possible.  If it's new users I
think the
one-liner handles this problem fine and has the virtue of being already
done.

If it's experienced users having this problem then you are correct and the
more elaborate fix is worth it.

Britton

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:kmk AT familieknaak DOT de" target=3D"_blank">kmk AT familieknaak.=
de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Britton Kerin wr=
ote:<br>
<br>
[automatic &quot;optimize rats&quot; after DRC]<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The problem is it&#39;s destr=
uctive: it resets the rats &gt; so if<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; the user is trying to work on a subset of the =
board while<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; sometimes doing DRC refresh it&#39;s going to =
be annoying.<br>
<br>
</span>Thinking about this again, I&#39;d say, this is a scenario which won=
&#39;t<br>
happen too often. Typically, either the layout is already completely<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">Well, it&#39;s what I always do.=
=C2=A0 I route some subset, occasionally checking</div><div style=3D"">DRC =
to see if I&#39;ve busten anything (I find auto-enforce annoying).=C2=A0 So=
 it</div><div style=3D"">would be very annoying for me at least.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
routed but needs some modifications. Then there are not so many rats<br>
to begin with. Or you are doing a portion of the layout for the first<br>
time. Then the tracks should automatically conform to the currently<br>
set design rules. So there is no much incentive to fire the design<br>
rule checker in the first place.<br>
<br>
That said, why not put a check button in the DRC window to<br>
activate/deactivate automatic &quot;update rats&quot;?<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div style=3D"">This is probably not a bad idea.=C2=A0 It&#39;s =
still slightly weird in that it globs</div><div style=3D"">together a bunch=
 of otherwise unrelated code (high interface-implementation</div><div style=
=3D"">divergence).</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><sp=
an class=3D"">
&gt; The problems with this are:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; * unless you do a lot of work to do the above stuff, the results of<br=
>
&gt; the checks still won&#39;t make it into the DRC window, you&#39;ll jus=
t get<br>
&gt; messages<br>
&gt; and maybe a little bit of orange on the main display.<br>
<br>
</span>This is (much) better than the current nothing. After all, connectio=
n<br>
check never gives you more than messages in the log and a little bit<br>
of orange in the main window.<br><span class=3D""><br>
&gt; * it&#39;s not obvious how to do it for non-gtk.<br>
<br>
</span>Uh, the same as for GTK: Put a check button in the DRC results dialo=
g<br>
to activate automatic connection check.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
 style=3D"">lesstif doesn&#39;t have a DRC dialog, it just present violatio=
ns one at a time.</div><div style=3D"">So you have to set and view this sta=
te somewhere else.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><sp=
an class=3D"">
&gt; An pop-up dialog to<br>
&gt; choose this each time would be really annoying<br>
<br>
</span>Why a pop-up?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">That&#3=
9;s what it would be for lesstif</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; * it&#39;s still a lot more trouble than the one-liner even ignoring<b=
r>
&gt; these issues<br>
<br>
</span>IMHO, the resulting UI improvement is worth the effort. I have seen<=
br>
more than one shorted board because the user failed to do a final<br>
connection check before exporting gerbers.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div style=3D"">Was the user new to gEDA, or not?</div><div style=3D"">My ex=
pectation is that experienced users always finish up watching the message l=
og.</div><div style=3D"">It becomes your normal flow and isn&#39;t somethin=
g you have to remember.=C2=A0 That&#39;s how</div><div style=3D"">it is for=
 me anyway and I&#39;m not generally much good at remembering things, norma=
lly</div><div style=3D"">I always make code to remember for me when possibl=
e.=C2=A0 If it&#39;s new users I think the</div><div style=3D"">one-liner h=
andles this problem fine and has the virtue of being already done.</div><di=
v style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">If it&#39;s experienced users having=
 this problem then you are correct and the more elaborate fix is worth it.<=
/div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">Britton</div></div></div></d=
iv>

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