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Subject: Re: [geda-user] Stop playing stupid political games with gEDA
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <201510111954.t9BJsXx5022095@envy.delorie.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:17:08 -0600
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On Oct 11, 2015, at 1:54 PM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

>=20
>> IIRC, there was a period of time where the dev list was writable for
>> devs only but could be read by everyone. Consequently some topics
>> talked about on the dev-list were also raised and discussed on the
>> user list.
>=20
> IIRC we moved topics to the dev list because they didn't belong on the
> user list, but some users kept moving them back so they could argue
> with the developers, so the user list ended up full of inappropriate
> topics anyway.  Hence, abuse.  It was impossible for the developers to
> have a conversation without the users forcing their way into it.

That you consider this abuse is one of the things what arouses =
suspicion. Since developer actions impact users, a good developer =
welcomes user input.

>=20
>> In addition, posts to the user list had to be manually
>> approved by a list administrator. By contrast, mails sent to the user
>> list by developers did not need to be approved.
>=20
> I don't recall that rule.  Perhaps it was limited to abusers, not
> non-developers.
>=20
>> A few months later the old user list got shut down completely. A new
>> mailing list was set up on a different server. The list of members =
was
>> not transferred. So the new list started empty. Again, no discussion,
>> no warning.
>=20
> Hmm... next time I create a mailing list, I need to warn you?
>=20
>>> Now we have one list (geda-user) for general discussion, and we
>>> happen to have a few other mailing lists that generally have no
>>> discussion on them yet seem to be a hot spot for everyone who isn't
>>> on them.
>>=20
>> Make the archives public and the paranoia will vanish for the most
>> part.
>=20
> http://www.delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi?p=3Dgeda-user
> http://www.delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi?p=3Dgeda-help
>=20
> There you go.  There's generally no traffic on any of the other lists,
> so there are no archives to share.  If you require archives to make
> your paranoia go away, you'll be paranoid forever.
>=20
>> IMHO, this is less about permission to be on a list but more about
>> whether or not the content of communication is accessible to the
>> ordinary user.
>=20
> The problems we had in the past were not about that.  They were about
> people thinking they had a right to be *involved* in any given
> conversation, even if the group having the conversation didn't want
> them to be (for whatever reason).  Sometimes devs want to have a quiet
> discussion about a feature without everyone else making noise about it
> and confusing the issue, but the geda community would not allow the
> devs that option.

Good. The last thing I want is a community of passive software =
consumers. That would surely kill gEDA for my purposes.

>=20
>> Some of the most successful open source projects make a point to
>> communicate transparent as possible.
>=20
> And some of the most successful ones have private lists.  "Public" is
> not a requirement to success, *respect* is.  If the devs (or admins,
> or whatever group) want to have a private conversation, others should
> respect that.  The gEDA community doesn't respect that.

Because some developers have repeatedly given some of us reason to =
distrust them. Their values are not ours. Development for the sake of =
development risks disconnection from user concerns. You, in particular, =
are tremendously talented at saying soothing things about preserving the =
versatility of the tools, and immediately following up with statements =
that show you don=92t understand their versatility at all. You say =
=93users just want to get work done=94, but then fail to understand that =
the toolkit is what enables this.

>=20
>> It is the nature of a privilege that it diminishes those who don't
>> have it.
>=20
> Not if it's a priviledge earned.  Granting that priviledge to just
> anyone diminishes the value of earning it.  Sometimes people aren't
> equal because one of them puts in a lot of hard work to better
> themselves.
>=20

The trust of users is also something that must be earned.

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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