* Difficulty to install on my = machine (Mac) (e.g. here and here)
= Eventually, but reluctantly, I gave up and settled on running = gschem/pcb
in a linux virtual machine.
Once I chose to = switch though, the linux install was painless.

Ok = should be have a livecd/usb, virtualbox or vmware image for people
to = play with?

Is a functional version = for Mac OS X out of scope? Or maybe other folks have had success = with geda on mac. I have not (well, gschem is sort = of ok but I can=92t get pcb to run on a = mac).

* Lack of coherent documentation for new users like myself = to get off the
ground

Should we have a manual = that breaks down things for people who want
the simple answer? = Basically instead of trying to explain each tool in
the chain but = just how to use them in a flow?

Yes, = I think that workflow-based tutorials are particularly useful, = especially for new users.

The gschem->gs= ch2pcb->pcb and Your = First Board tutorials were particularly helpful to me. = But they could be brought up to date (such as Import = Schematics feature).

I would guess that my = goals as a new user were not unusual. I was looking for a workflow = to take me from schematic to gerber for a custom board. I didn=92t = need to run simulations. I had no desire/need to work with a = netlist. I wanted to hop between schematic capture and layout = without having to worry/know about how the connection between the = two was handled.

I understand that the use of = gschem does not lock you in to using pcb, but the two can certainly be = used in harmony. A coherent set of documentation to guide new = users down that (presumably very) common path would be = helpful.

1. <How do I = make a schematic with geda?>
2. <How do I make a schematic with = geda and then turn it into a netlist
to simulate it?>
3. = <How do I simulate a netlist with ngspice?>
4. <How do I = simulate a netlist with gnucap?>
5. <How do I simulate a = netlist with xyce?>
6. <How do I make a schematic with geda and = then a board layout with pcb?
7. <How do I make a schematic with = geda and then a board with pcb using a
Makefile to automate = it?>
8. <How do I make a schematic in geda to make a board with = pcb and a
netlist to simulate = it?>

All good things. As a = new user, I would have benefitted most from #1, 6, 7 (and also an = easy-to-follow guide to custom symbol and footprint = generation).

= For example, I had been following the recommendation to use = gsch2pcb
(which is the first listed tutorial for how to start using = gEDA) for more
than a year before I stumbled upon the =93Import = Schematic=94 feature in pcb.
And, IIRC, the documentation for that is = scattered throughout mailing list
posts.

Can you = explain what was in coherent. Was gEDA's stuff not matching up
with = PCB's documentation or was it the wiki's tendency to point people
off = at example projects rather than a specific part of the manual? I
want = to really understand how we led you down a rabbit = hole.

As a comparison to the = geda wiki, see for example the KiCad =93Getting Started" = page and associated = Getting Started Guide.

Or the similar documentation for = Eagle.

Pages like this:

= http://wiki.geda-proje= ct.org/geda:pcb_tips

were immensely helpful to me later in = the process, when I was searching for a specific tip during a board = design, but much less so in my early days.

* Lack of searchable archive of = the mailing list(?) Maybe there is one, but
I haven=92t found = it.
As a result, I often stumble across useful mailing list = content by
accident when doing somewhat related google searches (e.g. = the Import
Schematic example = above).

Ok.

So = is there a searchable/browsable archive of the mailing list? =

I know about this = archive but it segments postings by day, making casual browsing = impractical, and search is restricted to a 2, 3 or 4 day look-back = time.

1. Could you make a = list of the useful stuff?

See below for a couple = examples.

2. What made it = useful. Was the content unique or was it just better
at explaining = things?

It was useful because I had = never seen it before, even after spending time on the geda website. = i.e. features/techniques/workarounds that I didn=92t know = existed.

e.g. the Import Schematics feature. Or how to = ensure that pcb didn=92t use the default library elements (even though = the configuration file requested that it did not =97 presumably this is = not desired behavior and something needs to be fixed in pcb...). I = can=92t think of others right now. Often they were small things =97 = time savers, =93power user=94 tips, etc.

3. Could we fold the questions it answered into a FAQ or = other document?

Yes, = absolutely.

* No straightforward way to = share a design (with relevant
symbols/footprints) to = collaborators.
see e.g. recent discussion on that = topic.

Ok. Could that be another item in the list of = potential documentation
I made earlier
<How to bundle a = schematic for distribution>
<How to bundle a pcb for = distribution>
<How to bundle a simulation for = distribution>

Yes.

I work at a college, and = the issues above pose a barrier to collaborating

OT: = I was there a little while ago. My gf was there in her reunion,
she = likes having reasons to visit the place. If you want to meet in
real = life to talk about how geda could be different let me = know.

I=92d be happy = to.

with = students who are new to EDA. i.e. it makes it hard to =93bring new = users
into the fold.=94 In contrast, there is ample Eagle/KiCad = documentation, and
the students prefer to start = there.

Ok. I will look at that stuff and ask more = questions of you later. I
want to understand exactly what the = difference is.

Sounds = good

Since 2014, I've posted many questions to geda-help and = geda-user, and the
responses are often helpful and quick, and I = really appreciate that.
But sometimes it=92s clear that there just = isn=92t a straightforward solution to
the issue, and often no sense = that a solution is coming soon.

Yes. I understand = that.

Some examples:

* Bug in = pcb when flipping component to back side of board

Is = that still broken?

Can=92t say for = sure =97 I am reluctant to alter my installation to find = out.

But here=92s a simple 2-step test that can be done to = check:

In a new pcb file:
1) Manually insert = one 0805.fp element from the default library.
2) Flip the element to = the back-side (push =93B=94 when mouse is over element).
The visible = pad dimensions will be incorrect (though when you drag the part, the pad = outline =97 thin red line on my machine =97 will be correct).

If, = however, you place the 0805.fp, then rotate, then flip to back side, the = pad dimensions will be correct. This is my current work-around to = the bug.

I posted more details (and figures) online.

* No good way to implement = single-point grounding in pcb (or to specify it
in gschem).
= The recommended work-around was to use a capital letter I on a = copper
layer to bridge AGND and DGND, which only works because the = pcb DRC ignores
text...

Yea that is pretty = bad.

* Can=92t omit the solder mask = layer in pcb

You don't want solder mask for a whole = board? or is this the issue of
selective mask = removal?

My original question was = about the former, but I=92ve since had a board where I wanted to remove = only part of the solder mask.

* pcb insists on using elements = from the default library (without manually
deleting the default = library). e.g. (here and = here)

ok.

Overall = though, I like the unixy aspects of gschem/pcb enough to stick = with
it and puzzle things out. So please know that I am very = appreciative of the
existence of both programs and of the community = that supports them.

Thanks.

James

Evan

--
Home
http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/=
Work
http://forge.abcd.harvard.edu/gf/project/epl_engineering/w= iki/

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