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        Tue, 26 Jul 2016 14:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "James Battat (jbattat AT wellesley DOT edu) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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Subject: Re: Why we just lost some users? -> Re: [geda-user] Stay or go?
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 17:22:20 -0400
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> I am moving this to it's own thread just because I want it to get some
> added attention. I am hoping Marvin can respond with out being
> harassed by people looking to debate what he needs/wants because I
> want to honestly know (as I think others do/should) what people are
> looking for in gEDA that we currently don't have.

I can add one point of view here.  When I was a brand-new user (started =
using gEDA in 2014 =97 I still consider myself a =93quite new" user), I =
found the following frustrating when trying out gEDA:

* Difficulty to install on my machine (Mac) (e.g. here and here)
  Eventually, but reluctantly, I gave up and settled on running =
gschem/pcb in a linux virtual machine. =20
  Once I chose to switch though, the linux install was painless.

* Lack of coherent documentation for new users like myself to get off =
the ground
  For example, I had been following the recommendation to use gsch2pcb =
(which is the first listed tutorial for how to start using gEDA) for =
more than a year before I stumbled upon the =93Import Schematic=94 =
feature in pcb.  And, IIRC, the documentation for that is scattered =
throughout mailing list posts.

* Lack of searchable archive of the mailing list(?)  Maybe there is one, =
but I haven=92t found it.  =20
  As a result, I often stumble across useful mailing list content by =
accident when doing somewhat related google searches (e.g. the Import =
Schematic example above).

* No straightforward way to share a design (with relevant =
symbols/footprints) to collaborators.
  see e.g. recent discussion on that topic.

I work at a college, and the issues above pose a barrier to =
collaborating with students who are new to EDA.  i.e. it makes it hard =
to =93bring new users into the fold.=94  In contrast, there is ample =
Eagle/KiCad documentation, and the students prefer to start there.

Since 2014, I've posted many questions to geda-help and geda-user, and =
the responses are often helpful and quick, and I really appreciate that. =
=20
But sometimes it=92s clear that there just isn=92t a straightforward =
solution to the issue, and often no sense that a solution is coming =
soon.

Some examples:

* Bug in pcb when flipping component to back side of board

* No good way to implement single-point grounding in pcb (or to specify =
it in gschem).
  The recommended work-around was to use a capital letter I on a copper =
layer to bridge AGND and DGND, which only works because the pcb DRC =
ignores text...

* Can=92t omit the solder mask layer in pcb

* pcb insists on using elements from the default library (without =
manually deleting the default library).  e.g. (here and here)

Overall though, I like the unixy aspects of gschem/pcb enough to stick =
with it and puzzle things out.  So please know that I am very =
appreciative of the existence of both programs and of the community that =
supports them.

James=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">I am moving this =
to it's own thread just because I want it to get some<br>added =
attention. I am hoping Marvin can respond with out being<br>harassed by =
people looking to debate what he needs/wants because I<br>want to =
honestly know (as I think others do/should) what people are<br>looking =
for in gEDA that we currently don't =
have.<br></blockquote><br></div><div>I can add one point of view here. =
&nbsp;When I was a brand-new user (started using gEDA in 2014 =97 I =
still consider myself a =93quite new" user), I found the following =
frustrating when trying out gEDA:</div><div><br></div><div>* Difficulty =
to install on my machine (Mac) (e.g.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi?p=3Dgeda-user/2016/02/2=
9/22:00:39">here</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/thread.cgi?msg=3Dgeda-help/2016/02=
/29/20:24:53&amp;mode=3Dframes">here</a>)</div><div>&nbsp; Eventually, =
but reluctantly, I gave up and settled on running gschem/pcb in a linux =
virtual machine. &nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; Once I chose to switch though, =
the linux install was painless.</div><div><br></div><div>* Lack of =
coherent documentation for new users like myself to get off the =
ground</div><div>&nbsp; For example, I had been following the <a =
href=3D"http://wiki.geda-project.org/geda:gsch2pcb_tutorial">recommendatio=
n to use gsch2pcb</a>&nbsp;(which is the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://wiki.geda-project.org/geda:faq#okay_how_do_i_start_using_ge=
da">first listed tutorial</a>&nbsp;for how to start using gEDA) for more =
than a year before I stumbled upon the =93Import Schematic=94 feature in =
pcb. &nbsp;And, IIRC, the documentation for that is&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.geda.user/41098">scattere=
d throughout mailing list posts</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>* Lack of =
searchable archive of the mailing list(?) &nbsp;Maybe there is one, but =
I haven=92t found it. &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; As a result, I often =
stumble across useful mailing list content by accident when doing =
somewhat related google searches (e.g. the Import Schematic example =
above).</div><div><br></div><div>* No straightforward way to share a =
design (with relevant symbols/footprints) to =
collaborators.</div><div>&nbsp; see e.g.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi?p=3Dgeda-user/2016/07/0=
6/07:16:06">recent discussion</a>&nbsp;on that =
topic.</div><div><br></div><div>I work at a college, and the issues =
above pose a barrier to collaborating with students who are new to EDA. =
&nbsp;i.e. it makes it hard to =93bring new users into the fold.=94 =
&nbsp;In contrast, there is ample Eagle/KiCad documentation, and the =
students prefer to start there.</div><div><br></div><div>Since 2014, =
I've posted many questions to geda-help and geda-user, and the responses =
are often helpful and quick, and I really appreciate that. =
&nbsp;</div><div>But sometimes it=92s clear that there just isn=92t a =
straightforward solution to the issue, and often no sense that a =
solution is coming soon.</div><div><br></div><div>Some =
examples:</div><div><br></div><div>* Bug in pcb&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/thread.cgi?msg=3Dgeda-help/2016/03=
/14/20:15:51&amp;mode=3Dframes">when flipping component to back side of =
board</a></div><div><br></div><div>* No good way to implement =
single-point grounding in pcb (or to specify it in =
gschem).</div><div>&nbsp; The <a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/thread.cgi?msg=3Dgeda-help/2016/03=
/11/17:17:18&amp;mode=3Dframes">recommended work-around</a>&nbsp;was to =
use a capital letter I on a copper layer to bridge AGND and DGND, which =
only works because the pcb DRC ignores =
text...</div><div><br></div><div>* Can=92t&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/thread.cgi?msg=3Dgeda-help/2016/03=
/18/13:01:39&amp;mode=3Dframes">omit the solder mask layer</a>&nbsp;in =
pcb</div><div><br></div><div>* pcb insists on using elements from the =
default library (without manually deleting the default library). =
&nbsp;e.g. (<a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/thread.cgi?msg=3Dgeda-help/2016/03=
/11/16:11:34&amp;mode=3Dframes">here</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Aug-2010/msg00347.html">here</a=
>)</div><div><br></div><div>Overall though, I like the unixy aspects of =
gschem/pcb enough to stick with it and puzzle things out. &nbsp;So =
please know that I am very appreciative of the existence of both =
programs and of the community that supports =
them.</div><div><br></div><div>James</div></body></html>=

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