X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-TCPREMOTEIP: 207.224.51.38 X-Authenticated-UID: jpd AT noqsi DOT com Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: John Doty In-Reply-To: <201602291654.u1TGsRTd003670@envy.delorie.com> Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 10:43:45 -0700 Message-Id: <233112C8-21C6-4753-823A-19BD5A2882C1@noqsi.com> References: <20160215215221 DOT fd472794e7b9446a243bfc40 AT gmail DOT com> <20160216085628 DOT b70143c330cd4da98a4603d3 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160805 DOT u1G85d8c003148 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216092912 DOT 7f7439f703b49175a21dbb1b AT gmail DOT com> <201602161715 DOT u1GHFMBB028078 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <201602162032 DOT u1GKWL7Y005291 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>

<59CE9019-7A56-49D6-BC2B-680A7253B055 AT noqsi DOT com>

<1771F6F4-1235-4D24-9015-2C9A04EB2117 AT noqsi DOT com>

<201602291654 DOT u1TGsRTd003670 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Feb 29, 2016, at 9:54 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: >=20 >=20 >>> gschem: hackish and limited, most of the limitations stem from >>> design, but it actually does its job surprisingly well on the >>> common daily stuff. >>=20 >> And on the uncommon stuff, too. Today's task is to assemble a SPICE >> file that, combined with other scripts, will allow a test engineer >> to plot the expected scope traces for a given configuration of an >> instrument with many configuration options. >=20 > Perhaps drawing a schematic for a spice simulation is common daily > stuff, then. >=20 >>> When I need something new and strange, it's a PITA to add, >>=20 >> But at least you *can*: >=20 > Hey, it's software, at least you *can* rewrite it to do anything. You > missed the message completely: It's *difficult* to do. Perhaps you > could put some effort into making it easier? There=92s a distinction between rewriting and scripting. I=92ve never = had to rewrite a single line of code in gschem, gnetlist, or libgeda to = do a very wide variety of things. A few lines of Scheme or AWK usually = suffice to do what I need. Developers code, users script, consumers do = neither. >=20 >>> because some of the most trivial and basic concepts are missing by = design. >>=20 >> And that is the Unix design philosophy, >=20 > It's a poor philosophy when it results in a tool that's missing > "trivial and basic concepts". It's a like a "cat" command that can't > take more than one input file. >=20 > Any please stop with the "ancient unix philosophy" argument. If the > tool is difficult to use by the target users, something is wrong. Who are the target users? It used to be =93anybody computer-literate = who=92s using any tool that can read a netlist=94, but that idea doesn=92t= fit the pcb culture. I think you mean consumers, not users. There=92s a = place for consumer software, but gschem isn=92t consumer software. It=92s = for users, not consumers. > Why > not find out what's causing the difficulty and try to fix it, instead > of putting the onus on the users to figure out what philosophy they > should have adopted? Because I think there should be a toolkit for those of us who need the = open-ended capability that the Unix philosophy leads to. Imitating KiCAD = is a dead end. >=20 >> But networks shouldn't exist. Having gschem understand networks is >> like cat -v. Networks are gnetlist's job. Fundamentally, gschem >> edits pages, not circuits. >=20 > Fundamentally, gschem edits schematics, not pages. Dumbing it down to > "just editing pages" is like using Microsoft Paint to do architectural > design. Sure, it works, but it's not smart enough to work well. No, it=92s just like using an editor to create program source code, a = page at a time. The editor is not responsible for the things that make, = the compiler, and the linker do. That=92s good modularity. >=20 >>> and that "scheme is so great that everyone must learn it", etc. >>=20 >> Scheme is just another programming language. Guile is a rather >> undisciplined implementation of it. It's not wonderful, but it's not >> a barrier unless you make it one. >=20 > It's a barrier because it has an intrinsic learning curve that must be > assigned a cost and priority. It makes it difficult for people to > justify using gEDA *at all* because the cost of adoption is that much > higher. Pointing out that this cost is *expected of everyone* doesn't > help. But it=92s the cost of a flexible, extensible system. I know you don=92t = really want that. You want Word, I want LaTeX. LaTeX is actually what we = have, and some of us need it. That=92s our fundamental divide. The logic = of what you express should lead you to the conclusion that what you = really want is a schematic plugin for pcb. >=20 >> Gschem is a page editor. >=20 > Too bad it's not a schematic editor. That would be useful. >=20 It=92s darn useful. It enables me to do jobs solo that would require a = team with other tools. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ jpd AT noqsi DOT com --Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJW1INSAAoJEF1Aj/0UKykR0UgP/RlMHJHrJ+orT3uHR0qwhqml tO26Ki0SZBQXSHS73nh7H1k4Djx9NFim7GQG2+Z0ZbqnMtOCpY0aZ4BnDAyyl9rA vRZjBmRdSgLBSYKpCpIYMulnXG7CnEu5BtJT3h4PS6jFLLsEhReqTEcs/MRX6bP3 E+Ky5N0jGqWrP6RrFYRcKn6xGccbGTnyjoK1maKm60i/mB9q/skMj8hsRzD8wpZq UbFi4pRB9NkFnLLATP6HF32obwjlAOtRgDtVxyTKFDHWxbuVvl5HOAoiRON333jV tFnCaBp8QyAHWLaCP9HfeqTWGFsWhLFys7NfXS/TBRPZkzXcVKi2AqZq11dIZ4Pf 4tWlmlijU8+QmLqmCIMBv0Gl24JLZU9N820rZJbCEqX3t7pqwepeUxT5yqAG3PYU S4VCEhHKgyobvUz3F9s4PELlqwghS0jbMys4H5NPRPAxrvMUK0eMiiNEzq9zN78S vKfSEiOtaNzO596NyXcS3pBy7T3WaPLbC7bxVZiOxg1rtueYSxqvbXKZt1qjvOrN A4aGa81rZDVzIZ6hb34pqjj89GWneq1wokPsKNtIoD199M/DdPwSfVQMUzM0syUM EwVWX6BhlVdG68N5EchH3OmHCvqv73ItndroXqNSB1j7vZjMFBRZY47Ku+jRLFiu vEfwc8HKJ+xxGm8MII38 =RCrs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE--