X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-TCPREMOTEIP: 207.224.51.38 X-Authenticated-UID: jpd AT noqsi DOT com Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0EBF1587-01F7-4DBD-B323-661DD2D6A30E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: John Doty In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 15:50:30 -0700 Message-Id: <2DE900EA-9406-40F8-A225-24BD09B3C20A@noqsi.com> References: <20160215215221 DOT fd472794e7b9446a243bfc40 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152055 DOT u1FKtM4K011038 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160215220938 DOT bbc7eaa59d827cd0b261ea97 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152135 DOT u1FLZrw9012774 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <7F210DE7-0A0B-42F9-ABBE-2C2768621186 AT noqsi DOT com> <20160216081722 DOT 1065cbed6653d3da4ffc7498 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160724 DOT u1G7Ox26001785 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216085628 DOT b70143c330cd4da98a4603d3 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160805 DOT u1G85d8c003148 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216092912 DOT 7f7439f703b49175a21dbb1b AT gmail DOT com> <201602161715 DOT u1GHFMBB028078 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <201602162032 DOT u1GKWL7Y005291 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>

<59CE9019-7A! 56-49D6-BC2B-680A7253B055 AT noqsi DOT com>

<1771F6F4-1235-4D24-9015-2C9A04EB2117 AT noqsi DOT com> To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail=_0EBF1587-01F7-4DBD-B323-661DD2D6A30E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Feb 28, 2016, at 3:22 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) = [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, John Doty wrote: >>=20 >> On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) = [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: >>=20 >>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> John Doty wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Gschem has no such problem. >>>>>=20 >>>>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware >>>>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware = projects. >>>>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples. >>>>=20 >>>> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn=92t mean that = LaTeX isn=92t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it = should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. = Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both = approaches). >>>>=20 >>>> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed = with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever = put into space. >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is = working >>>>> alright, when it clearly isn=92t. >>>>=20 >>>> Clearly not. But there=92s a profound difference between what pcb = users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is = far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, = geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it = at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don=92t = want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, = and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* = application). >>>=20 >>> pcb has an action system. It has batch mode. It has a plugin = system. It has >>> a text file format. It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more = than gschem. >>> A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not = less so. >>=20 >> But it doesn=92t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. = Pcb simply can=92t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of = intentions reflecting use cases. It=92s not a =93stack of materials=94 = editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset. >=20 > If you mean it can only make pcbs you're correct, but since that's all = it's > supposed to do that's hardly surprising. The abstractions it uses are > quite suitable for the purpose. No they are not. Suitable abstractions would allow the user to draw a = buried via, for example. > If it was a "stack of materials" editor > it wouldn't work to make pcbs, since stacking up a bunch of materials = won't > result in a pcb. But PCBs commonly contain structures that pcb cannot represent, so pcb=92s= model is deficient. >=20 > I think what frustrates me most about your attitude towards pcb is = that you're > determined to regard its problems (and I freely admit that there are = some) > as fundamental design defects. You're mostly wrong in this, have no = basis > for the claim, and should stop making it. >=20 >> Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible = abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the = topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There = are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, = pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future. >>=20 >>>> It=92s also true that much of geda-gaf=92s intelligence is actually = in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a = particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, = this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application = space isn=92t a coherent, monolithic thing. >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> It has been stable and productive for >>>>>> well over a decade. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades. >>>>=20 >>>> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is = problems with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people = expect geda-gaf to work >>>=20 >>> That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder. >>=20 >> Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach = of implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem = harder? >=20 > It's intrinsically harder. I'm going to assume you accept that. I do not. I accept that you can make it harder by having an inadequate = foundation. > If you > knew how it worked at all you wouldn't claim that it implements a = function > for every use case. It absolutely does not. If you actually want an = idea > how it works take a look in src/gpcb_menu.res.in, and you'll see that = all > the operations defined in the menus are implemented in terms of = sequences > of fundamental actions. You have a different notion of fundamental than I have. What you call = fundamental, I call ad hoc. And the proof that I=92m right is that your = so-called =93fundamental=94 operations do not actually capture the = construction of a PCB in general. >=20 >>>>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non- >>>>> ambiguous. >>>>=20 >>>> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample. >>>=20 >>> The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum >>=20 >> Indeed. That=92s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. = What=92s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn=92t use pcb? People = like Paul Tan don=92t seem to post anymore. >=20 > You're changing the subject from the user composition question and = relevance > of Kai's poll. I'll take it you concede the point. Of course not. You=92re not being scientific. It is certain that the = population here is not representative of the whole community, and there = are strong reasons to believe that geda users who don=92t use pcb are = underrepresented. You=92ve worked hard to make us unwelcome. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ jpd AT noqsi DOT com --Apple-Mail=_0EBF1587-01F7-4DBD-B323-661DD2D6A30E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJW03m2AAoJEF1Aj/0UKykRGC4P/ROTb6JSlg61VQLiqQ927CgU uJhCQVk8DDmIjJsyHJee1TpBjDf7/AOCsEzWp777jLXGCNcQl53wxwSIpMxm733a sMwfuugmc9ExSQMLri0V/JSY7AK3RLgEAcibcTvRYV1WI7ZwzNJcTQwI0XnZxQ/d TxIz28kBSg3BCKfJ2aG+66sYb+UFdpzstvmURfk6rbBJGwrfsNhNV67Bds6PFvZX 2MUSlnO1EZlkUlROWQ9av5wVnd5vf8S170tSmacx3DaFndGmB5Tr4ciNrQ2nV4lW 48zK84PcbP7wTfxiFiQDYtznOBjfWzOabVNAz/qAbskoS1jsocwEoyMRxYMTFKFp mtjd6lJZuB9Bn8vmE9n1CA61MqfJ9d7rQ0tSKgR2I5Ics3oy7xQo+AS1WScwq/dr h99qyn/Q50sbgRmBJNPuCZOWDl5o/xWd3GADss4cdyCObsKKbVNDzqzbf2bZvZNJ pb0DydoJqrd4SzcmH5s2al8V+1qVIjqYoidAxMqG1sLITl6PrIkPdxMb7HHfV01Q ygvVf8ZKwNCRB6qnMmSE60Xw+G4mO0NgzY3fyqwXPpz5I9v7U3j6syUmXdN6atYl F3Ervs/fitAQsbuBF6Ef8DWbr0vMjDc8AGkJu0Jwfph0YTjGeqUctXOwfqjzqBAp Wt2R7u8uuF4i0iBrW6g8 =Egap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0EBF1587-01F7-4DBD-B323-661DD2D6A30E--