X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-TCPREMOTEIP: 207.224.51.38 X-Authenticated-UID: jpd AT noqsi DOT com Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D2101AE9-D89F-499C-AFBE-084535DFB62B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: John Doty In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 13:50:46 -0700 Message-Id: <1771F6F4-1235-4D24-9015-2C9A04EB2117@noqsi.com> References: <20160215215221 DOT fd472794e7b9446a243bfc40 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152055 DOT u1FKtM4K011038 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160215220938 DOT bbc7eaa59d827cd0b261ea97 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152135 DOT u1FLZrw9012774 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <7F210DE7-0A0B-42F9-ABBE-2C2768621186 AT noqsi DOT com> <20160216081722 DOT 1065cbed6653d3da4ffc7498 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160724 DOT u1G7Ox26001785 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216085628 DOT b70143c330cd4da98a4603d3 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160805 DOT u1G85d8c003148 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216092912 DOT 7f7439f703b49175a21dbb1b AT gmail DOT com> <201602161715 DOT u1GHFMBB028078 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <201602162032 DOT u1GKWL7Y005291 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>

<59CE9019-7A56-49D6-BC2B-680A7253B055 AT noqsi DOT com>

To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail=_D2101AE9-D89F-499C-AFBE-084535DFB62B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) = [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty wrote: >>=20 >> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak = wrote: >>=20 >>> John Doty wrote: >>>=20 >>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term, >>>>=20 >>>> Gschem has no such problem. >>>=20 >>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware >>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware = projects. >>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples. >>=20 >> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn=92t mean that = LaTeX isn=92t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it = should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. = Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both = approaches). >>=20 >> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed = with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever = put into space. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is = working >>> alright, when it clearly isn=92t. >>=20 >> Clearly not. But there=92s a profound difference between what pcb = users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is = far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, = geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it = at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don=92t = want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, = and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* = application). >=20 > pcb has an action system. It has batch mode. It has a plugin system. = It has > a text file format. It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more = than gschem. > A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not less = so. But it doesn=92t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. Pcb = simply can=92t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of = intentions reflecting use cases. It=92s not a =93stack of materials=94 = editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset. Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible = abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the = topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There = are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, = pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future. >> It=92s also true that much of geda-gaf=92s intelligence is actually = in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a = particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, = this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application = space isn=92t a coherent, monolithic thing. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> It has been stable and productive for >>>> well over a decade. >>>=20 >>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades. >>=20 >> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is problems = with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people expect = geda-gaf to work >=20 > That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder. Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach of = implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem = harder? >=20 >>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non- >>> ambiguous. >>=20 >> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample. >=20 > The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum Indeed. That=92s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. = What=92s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn=92t use pcb? People = like Paul Tan don=92t seem to post anymore. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ jpd AT noqsi DOT com --Apple-Mail=_D2101AE9-D89F-499C-AFBE-084535DFB62B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJW012nAAoJEF1Aj/0UKykR2cIP/i4KC9CVKWzTsmhO+oRrVuW8 HXac1u8KihpDG64W3b/nQs0HWC/nkmuw+nQttYZgiK6Ms95KguqFA56WwWQyKe8I GuGQGS1SH1H1cPp/VwIIIMB3KAI7FKr2Py1Y1a5AQ8x5vvV//Lg2k0faarFluqCE fVztUgBku50Z4xiDOTF8wiR+rQ+TWDFzqYmXVWymPD7Qf6x82OrEp6u/ySJ3Uc9q E6RCDziOgT7MJRySPRopkwyfayjUEABIFyWcn2RKNS5A49pQKYTvSRKbyDHehwD/ 2cZx93JDVe9OjuBR00p9HFmR0FxE0JTVQIHZFXZ3VcQrTXivIrxxfxjCPqSx5Uuy UUZSSo13XCJEObPk5xTWfikI8gxnmYrDPSzx1E/NSTDEeRJxBauqV3wAgPacy4NP 3//02feWr5zG9hX2gugM5wR6E5G0C96Hfr/kmgv972i6HAM71cXteH+INPrGXQCZ 9oFfGUKGsbi7rPBkH/y7zcXihtIrZz6yInw1bMraLM9R0njwMM5lmTtMxRxcimVL 0K2+p053Scb9KW6NWG8NPjfy3Io5pJSrU/QhzYQ9oIkDHtu4BlYG0w9GYOooMyGK DSd1LJN3aJY6zBa0NWG26zAMlyq+oFIxtC2Zyh3gxAKAKqEWAPfRoTfy9B6vtVir o2Yp1QiOiaruAeS3qWAX =Gru9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D2101AE9-D89F-499C-AFBE-084535DFB62B--