X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-TCPREMOTEIP: 207.224.51.38 X-Authenticated-UID: jpd AT noqsi DOT com Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6ABF950E-EFC9-402F-9D65-3DF082840AA3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 $1878.6$) Subject: Re: [geda-user] The nature of gEDA users X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: John Doty In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:08:24 -0700 Message-Id: References: <56A751EC DOT 8030402 AT iae DOT nl> <20160126124701 DOT 0d061912c7e078ced9d4e6cb AT gmail DOT com> <201601261804 DOT u0QI4KEQ009550 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com>

To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail=_6ABF950E-EFC9-402F-9D65-3DF082840AA3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Jan 26, 2016, at 1:29 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) = [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:53 AM, John Doty wrote: >>=20 >> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:04 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> In this day and age to say blind/buried vias are not needed is = ridiculous. >>>> The fact is ANY design that requires even one FPGA, custom ASIC or >>>> medium to large BGA needs blind/buried vias. >>>>=20 >>>> This is factual and is easy vetted. >>>=20 >>> If you can afford a custom ASIC, you can afford a top-end EDA = package, >>> and a FAB that supports high-end features. >>=20 >> Not true. In my world, I have to do much of the EDA work in the the = proposal and feasibility study phases. Shoestring budgets, or no budget = at all. A big company covers this by having lots going at once, but = Noqsi Aerospace is a tiny company (3 people at the moment, the largest = we=92ve ever been). For our current biggest project, we went through two = years of doing a lot of work for zero pay (but now it=92s paying off). = We couldn=92t have afforded a top-end package during those years. We = worked with a board designer who used Osmond PCB: not high-end, but it = has blind and buried vias. He was much faster and more accurate than the = big-$$ contractors who use the high-end software. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Frankly, PCB is not a >>> high-end package and custom ASIC users are not our target audience. >>=20 >> But gschem can do schematic capture for ASIC even though that=92s not = its target. The difference is that gschem doesn=92t limit what you can = draw. It=92s quirky and limits *how* you can express what you need, but = I=92ve never found it incapable of expressing a circuit. It gives you a = few crude primitives and a few ways to compose more complex objects from = simple objects. A few layers of that, and you have a 6000 component = mixed-signal ASIC. >>=20 >> Pcb says to the user =93my way or the highway=94. Gschem says =93live = with my quirks, and I=92ll help you do anything=94. >=20 > Not true, I've just gone through the entire format carefully and pcb > actually has very little per-part or per-feature overhead. It's about > as close to a paint program as it can be. It can do lots of stuff, > though admittedly often in quirky ways, just like gschem. Your major > gripe seems to be that you can't "draw" 3D or inter-layer features, > because their implementation is bolted onto the fundamentally layer > oriented design in a hard-wired way. But it=92s not fundamentally layer-oriented. What it calls a =93layer=94 = does not have a 1-1 correspondence to the actual physical layers. > It's a true complaint but not > very useful, because adding 3D CAD would require a total rewrite with > buckets of additional complexity. I=92m not talking about full 3D. But, it would be nice to have *every* = layer modeled, and things that aren=92t layers like =93outline=94 given = a different category. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ jpd AT noqsi DOT com --Apple-Mail=_6ABF950E-EFC9-402F-9D65-3DF082840AA3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWp+BJAAoJEF1Aj/0UKykRTWEQAJeFq3g22LauWmz94ZemogTY kAEpHA7zfg02V9Cq6UCvjW0QMcLZgqr1kUn4VWj0ZEoS349hRtu+raeuUeEG1YO8 fH8pfiZyBxA6N9beGXFOU4AJuCVFzsbzH16E/u82v38cnJVLUp1eo0xZXB6LiaUM 0lKCSqr69aqawdZTRSSJ54mx7moiTQoZqaVYyKoTwruQy6PwhnuTkIx49gkSrKQQ 08ivzwL8IqsYs9B2E04TMHgDTS44Eeb5WthceSIUshQcUNnUjgV/+uINy0TI1Gbf yoBh/nrwwN18+yzcVhGr+2Jk5D5ZlggTyGQosrMNSvp8qUiUQR5aaURxDADAntih qAGe4Z1+WYgI8roHgMfeohTWykF4EQpbhaME2X+LeDkTWv2P6hlsha/lZnvFQLcq RRkYOM556ypSyVLcvjBEw/QS+dwYADlxnfGzIGGZCYyRumb4RElweaWjeUiyEYUo 5Nj0J83Rvs89kH0bU6mLz2CwM08BCU9ahXNBJ+9ryGPrjIl8NLzBqJT54DTNoMNL 4Dt2oz9ji5j6jec2GdNXhAZMuR6z6ePnr47k+fp3S5o45io8n8q/aEQ7c0YDZwyN OUEPNhErXGBnWorYBEm422KQn2LV97r0BybPbj7gwuhPV3id+M/5MUsx+5sr+CA3 D52wSEdz06tU2KPreB7+ =MqFi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6ABF950E-EFC9-402F-9D65-3DF082840AA3--