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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 05:26:26 +0000
From: "M. J. Everitt (m DOT j DOT everitt AT iee DOT org) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Subject: Re: [geda-user] File formats again :: was (features: layers stack,
 padstack/vias)
References: <1512221837 DOT AA25291 AT ivan DOT Harhan DOT ORG>	<CAC4O8c_R5xWLmzj_cz0g0mPWNs6mR4efjXKGBoup8YO6nwnPTA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>	<20160106091006 DOT 5F67B809D7A1 AT turkos DOT aspodata DOT se>	<CACwWb3CcsYJ9KgDFAa5pZqDzfTewhvbuatbxoKUp6PtHRCoa+w AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>	<20160106133049 DOT 5A0E9809D79B AT turkos DOT aspodata DOT se>	<CACwWb3Cyk4yLwt3=V1Mu5C4RieOQEjYH3ej5MXZSNnLPbshqDg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>	<20160106143629 DOT 4D39D809D79B AT turkos DOT aspodata DOT se>	<CACwWb3BXbnQXs+DwVVzmC8DrhwOYxPgVyUhZTPL9bM9cJbHimw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>	<20160106164022 DOT D0D4E809D79B AT turkos DOT aspodata DOT se>	<20160106180912 DOT 42ddf4079d91384f206b7c35 AT gmail DOT com>	<20160106191433 DOT 5dc5cb59 AT jive DOT levalinux DOT org>	<20160106202817 DOT 56197b2c539d426a1b724c9e AT gmail DOT com>	<568E09ED DOT 1080508 AT m0n5t3r DOT info>	<CACwWb3AhSh-+NNu--bVMGZBfjaoA+hHg7gbXnoyNv3oMq=e17g AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>	<568E6354 DOT 80302 AT m0n5t3r DOT info>	<20160108002640 DOT 03233b24 AT jive DOT levalinux DOT org>	<20160108175259 DOT 127a3f073616758434f7edff AT gmail DOT com>	<20160109020345 DOT 1e07cb84 AT jive> <CAC4O8c-nqs2+9rgsD-Gsks-wSmJ1eCkJ9PFMi3XqMrYE2FO3Ew AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
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Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com

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On 09/01/16 05:15, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Lev (leventelist AT gmail DOT com
> <mailto:leventelist AT gmail DOT com>) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com
> <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com
> <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 17:52:59 +0100
>     "Nicklas Karlsson (nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com
>     <mailto:nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com>) [via
>     geda-user AT delorie DOT com <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>]"
>     <geda-user AT delorie DOT com <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>> wrote:
>
>     > In preferences-->Layers-->Groups some of the layers are listed but
>     > not all are listed. What do you think is missing?
>
>     I would add explicitly the insulation layers, and documentation
>     layers, silks,
>     etc. I'd add user defined layers as well. I'd add some logic like
>     "XOR this
>     layer with that, and use it as conductive 2."
>
>     > For padtack which could be used for: pins, pads, via ordinary, via
>     > buried, via blind: I suggested a group of ordinary drawing
>     primitives
>     > could be grouped together but no one said if this is a bad or good
>     > idea. I also suggested this group you call a padstack could be
>     placed
>     > in a library with sub folders for different package types so they
>     > could be used many times. This might be very far out but a
>     discussion
>     > how it should be done is always a start.
>
>     Yes. That would be nice. A library is also a hierarchical
>     structure. It
>     contains the pads, padstacks, footprints. Yes, the padstacks are
>     built up
>     from primitives.
>
>     If I go on, and implement the SQL based file format, it is easy. I
>     defined pad
>     and padstack tables.
>
>     If we go the YAML way, I don't know how to represent that data.
>
>
> The way to think about YAML/JSON is as portable text-based
> serialization formats for the couple most popular datatypes that get
> built into modern languages, in particular arrays, hashes, and scalar
> values (basically numbers and strings).  JSON doesn't support native
> (non-tree) references so you have to add your own id field if what you
> want to refer to doesn't have already have a unique name.  YAML does. 
> JSON is much more common but unfortunately also more noisy.  Some
> people like the noise because they don't trust any whitespace-based
> approach (bad experiences with make).
>
> Britton
>
>
I agree with whoever posted that SQL isn't transferrable, as any
changes/errors in the db schema (ever) breaks things and is hard to
debug. At least with a text-based file format (whether JSON/YAML/XML)
you can human-read the file and see what's gone wrong, and easily make
filters/translators using readily-available tools.

MJE

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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/01/16 05:15, Britton Kerin
      (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4O8c-nqs2+9rgsD-Gsks-wSmJ1eCkJ9PFMi3XqMrYE2FO3Ew AT mail DOT gmail DOT com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Lev (<a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:leventelist AT gmail DOT com">leventelist AT gmail DOT com</a>)
            [via <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>]
            <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target="_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri,
              8 Jan 2016 17:52:59 +0100<br>
              "Nicklas Karlsson (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com">nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com</a>)
              [via<br>
              <span class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>]"
                &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                <br>
                &gt; In preferences--&gt;Layers--&gt;Groups some of the
                layers are listed but<br>
                &gt; not all are listed. What do you think is missing?<br>
                <br>
              </span>I would add explicitly the insulation layers, and
              documentation layers, silks,<br>
              etc. I'd add user defined layers as well. I'd add some
              logic like "XOR this<br>
              layer with that, and use it as conductive 2."<br>
              <span class=""><br>
                &gt; For padtack which could be used for: pins, pads,
                via ordinary, via<br>
                &gt; buried, via blind: I suggested a group of ordinary
                drawing primitives<br>
                &gt; could be grouped together but no one said if this
                is a bad or good<br>
                &gt; idea. I also suggested this group you call a
                padstack could be placed<br>
                &gt; in a library with sub folders for different package
                types so they<br>
                &gt; could be used many times. This might be very far
                out but a discussion<br>
                &gt; how it should be done is always a start.<br>
                <br>
              </span>Yes. That would be nice. A library is also a
              hierarchical structure. It<br>
              contains the pads, padstacks, footprints. Yes, the
              padstacks are built up<br>
              from primitives.<br>
              <br>
              If I go on, and implement the SQL based file format, it is
              easy. I defined pad<br>
              and padstack tables.<br>
              <br>
              If we go the YAML way, I don't know how to represent that
              data.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div style="">The way to think about YAML/JSON is as
              portable text-based serialization formats for the couple
              most popular datatypes that get built into modern
              languages, in particular arrays, hashes, and scalar values
              (basically numbers and strings).  JSON doesn't support
              native (non-tree) references so you have to add your own
              id field if what you want to refer to doesn't have already
              have a unique name.  YAML does.  JSON is much more common
              but unfortunately also more noisy.  Some people like the
              noise because they don't trust any whitespace-based
              approach (bad experiences with make).</div>
            <div style=""><br>
            </div>
            <div style="">Britton</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I agree with whoever posted that SQL isn't transferrable, as any
    changes/errors in the db schema (ever) breaks things and is hard to
    debug. At least with a text-based file format (whether
    JSON/YAML/XML) you can human-read the file and see what's gone
    wrong, and easily make filters/translators using readily-available
    tools.<br>
    <br>
    MJE<br>
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