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Subject: Re: [geda-user] Project leadership (design error in the core of gschem)
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1512300849200.9035@igor2priv>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 01:22:46 -0700
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References: <CAJXU7q_3XwthnN_8mp7B+-ShHeK+=7J=54ZavKBUG3S3bSKp2A AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <CANEvwqiM7CKG+WpDRpG4L=HsmSEZ32=CBDyUhuk3ks-SNedL2Q AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <43CC8F96-6452-40FA-9DFB-E0983721C19C AT noqsi DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512290406210 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <20151229094603 DOT 782092b57563336883546bfd AT gmail DOT com> <CAM2RGhQ363RydhBJKMnNX5sLOkD1K4qVwb-PPwov3MT3D6MfdQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <449C2A4A-814E-4858-ACB3-82807A80BE8A AT noqsi DOT com> <CAM2RGhQD1b0NKLWNYyB-m1whgYJZeEH9syzSs4OZt+22D5hooA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512300441390 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <E8E70657-A89A-4F51-B779-C24E029ABECA AT noqsi DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512300611420 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <C3D7084C-1A24-4266-806D-C337CFA17322 AT noqsi DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512300716090 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <E5C6D693-D7F1-41B0-934F-CBAFD710D67E AT noqsi DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512300804420 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv> <6645DDA7-7371-4E11-8B8D-82279DCC7C41 AT noqsi DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1512300849200 DOT 9035 AT igor2priv>
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On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:58 AM, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Wed, 30 Dec 2015, John Doty wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:17 AM, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2015, John Doty wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Dec 29, 2015, at 11:22 PM, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2015, John Doty wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Dec 29, 2015, at 10:29 PM, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> A common netlist/bom format with a canonical form (so =
equivalent netlists would be identical) would be a useful intermediate.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Could work. To me, the current patch format is much cleaner. I =
already have fully working code both in pcb-rnd and gschem. If you =
implement an alternative solution that is at least as capable, let me =
know.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I?m not saying get rid of your patch format. But you took a =
shortcut generally not available by having pcb make the patch directly.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> False. I did make a shortcut, but on a totally different level of =
abstraction.
>>>>=20
>>>> Only available to the geda-gaf->pcb flow.
>>>=20
>>> Nope, it's available in the pcb->geda-gaf flow. Not due to the =
format, not due to the shortcut. Only because I did't implement it for =
anything else.
>>>=20
>>> Please provide your reasoning why anything else couldn't emit a =
similar format!
>>=20
>> Not directly from a tool whose code you can?t modify. Indirectly =
through through additional scripts, of course, which is my proposal.
>=20
>=20
> That is not a property of the format we choose. That's a property of =
the program. If we go that way, the only acceptable format would be one =
of the formats osmond can already directly export.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> How would you implement this for Osmond PCB?
>=20
> I'll always show both directions.
>=20
> [gschem] --sch--> [gnetlist] --whateverformat1--> [osmond]
> [osmond] --whateverformat2--> [script] --patch--> [gschem]

My proposal was:

[gschem] =97sch =97> [gnetlist] =97osmnet =97> [osmond]
[osmond] =97osmnet =97> [script1] =97canonicalnet =97> [script2] =97patch =
=97> [gschem]

Not much different, except that I=92ve separated osmond-specific script1 =
from general-purpose script2.

>=20
> Depending on the "whateverformat2", the script may need access to the =
original netlist (form the gschem->osmond path).

Generally script2 will, yes.

> Also depending on the format the script may have major functionality =
overlap with gnetlist. If that's the case, it may be reasonable to =
implement the script within gnetlist.

Unlikely.

>=20
> This is one possible flow. There are other possible flows with other =
tools. The one currently implemnted is:
>=20
> [gschem] --sch--> [gsch2pcb] --multiplefiles--> [pcb]
> [pcb] --patch--> [gschem]
>=20
> My point was that the fact osmond can't directly emit the patch format =
doesn't invalidate other flows where it is possible.

I never said it did, but a general purpose toolkit should implement =
general mechanisms. That doesn=92t invalidate shortcuts for special =
cases.

> It also doesn't tell anything about the format itself - it only tells =
anything about osmond. It also doesn't seem to be more complicated than =
the other direction (actually looks exactly the same in complexity).
>=20
> Thus I can't agree with saying that either the flow or the format is =
not generic enough because you need the same extra step in =
osmond->gschem direction that you need in gschem->osmond direction.

Generally you need to work through netlist and BOM in both directions.

>=20
>=20

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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