X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=abl9tgz/p0bPNqHVsPdBmv5F7rYqA/QjlZKLykH15q0=; b=MeFQfmQbssihSxBLGaWUc1KqgH70OB5N4eHx3gUry91npy6fBz4hbQWEFc1O0GNfKa Q91ujfe9/pGXdzVs+Rplaa/QBxFQlFisoK1tCL8rcaKIoAxkYj/56EVT1XiaW9DHVtMe dSh9s0p4Lq2EZvnruiP/Mm0tkEwq7FJMw5yQuMpUeld78hDblcW5yWY9JWbz0WlrZHYI HpGNC3pRZGvGM1jk6cGKcfs0LPZZwo4OpzBZ1tMk5FBqejHu4E+L1vFZUoMglEhdF2il 678VGD8zS8FsLQ7wIN4ROXi6h3A+hWx83tKWzPKKTVgYqoRtEMc0TmjaJ5ijiOgor7sy 5xAA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.21.37 with SMTP id s5mr15336641lae.2.1436460031929; Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:40:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 12:40:31 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: developer excitement? was Re: [geda-user] gEDA/gschem still alive? From: "Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk I am going to punt this to it's own thread. On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:01 PM, wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, 8 Jul 2015, Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via >> geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: >> >>> A few people have said that projects slow when developers loose >>> interest. While everyone is here (admittadly sucked in by the gravity >>> of the other thread) it is worth asking what would excite developer >>> interest? >> >> >> I am an user of gEDA; mostly gschem and PCB. I never contributed anything, >> so my opinion is of an outsider's and is mostly about how/why I didn't join. >> >> First, my generic answer. What makes me work on a random open source >> project? For me, it's a combination of these, probably in this order or >> priority: >> >> 1. It's fun to code it - in hobby projects this is clearly the top prio >> >> 2. I need the feature - in a project ran by others, it's unlikely I'd work >> on a feature I wouldn't need or use directly. I think I'd leave >> such features for other developer. It's a bit different in the projects I >> run, for some reason I feel more responsibility there. >> >> 3. My work is useful and is built into the project; my patches are not >> thrown out and there are no unreasonable barriers that make any contribution >> 10x more complicated and time consuming than if it was my own project. This >> point may look somewhat fuzzy in this generic form, but it is very clear in >> practice and the decision is easy when I send a few patches. >> >> 4. This is a combination of 1 and 3: the project has a "roadmap"; it doesn't >> even have to be a written one, but generally it's going towards some >> specific goals that are recognizable with the naked eye of an average user. >> The goals should be at least partially aligned with my exceptations about >> the project. In other words: the project at least a bit tries to achieve >> what (as an user) I expect/want. >> >> **** >> DISCLAIMER: I don't want to trigger a VCS-war, and I don't mean any offense. >> I do realize developers of gEDA are intelligent, skilled people with their >> own reasons to code what they code. I am merely trying to describe what >> makes me not to consider contribution. >> **** >> >> My specific answer in case of PCB: >> >> - DVCS kills point 1. and 3. for me. It often kills 4. too, but in case of >> PCB I couldn't ever see a clear roadmap since I started to use it in the mid >> 2000s. > > You should really try again on DVCS. Its just totally better and the world > isn't going back, don't shut yourself out of having fun on 90% of new software. > >> - In practice this means random people are working in random branches on > > This is certainly true of gEDA but not because of DVCS. > >> - The combinaiton of the above two means I can't see a central repo where >> developers would really commit useful (-for-me) changes on a regular basis >> pushing the project in a direction I like at least a bit. New versions tend >> to be less aligned with my needs as user. When I was using the official >> version, in the last few years each upgrade was a risk of a bad surprise. >> >> - Bad experience with contribution from the far past (others say these >> things got improved lately). Many years ago I tried to fix a small bug but >> getting my patch accepted took too long and I had to spend too much time >> fine tuning my patch for no apperant reason. Later on I tried to contribute >> by working out an external example code for getting shorts displayed better. >> Developers got distracted into a "before we can deal with this, we need to >> clean up the infrastructure of PCB here a bit" recursion (this happens a lot >> with me in my own projects too!). All in all, I consider both occasions >> total waste of my time which made it easy to move on to other projects. > > The people in charge of the official repo, such as it is, don't really like > dealing with some types of contributions. This is apparently a widespread > feeling, but until we get someone who wants to take charge of a more aggressive > repo nothing will change. > >> - PCB started to take directions in the last 4..5 years that I didn't really >> like. The new features were much more often annoying and contra-productive >> than useful for me. I started to compile PCB from source to turn off opengl >> (normally I'd install the debian package). The features I really wanted or >> the features I'd find useful didn't stir much interest lately. At some point >> a few years back, after a new version introduced >> yet-another-bunch-of-code-I-didn't-want, I just decided to fork an older >> version of PCB. I implemented the features I wanted, and I don't have to >> worry how a new release would be stuffed with features I'd never need. >> >> - Now that I have my fork, it's unlikely that I'd contribute to the official >> stuff for simple, small, local, selfish reasons: I obviously do all the >> little things the way I enjoy the most which makes working on my fork much >> more attractice any time I feel like coding something for PCB. It's a >> one-way mechanism. >> >> - It is important to mention that I could do this only because even that old >> version of PCB that I choose was mature enough. > > This is the death spiral gEDA is stuck in. Main line development is so slow > that (essentially) private forks are more attractive, which in turn slows > development more, etc. > > Britton -- Home http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ Work http://forge.abcd.harvard.edu/gf/project/epl_engineering/wiki/