X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-help-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-help AT delorie DOT com X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1440913194; bh=YG9c8Ul+vEUQeoHm4kGAX0w3FzWoJcAiWxG109z0Bi0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=CR/L8XgCygYGprwpm2YAFpK6vQBy8u05fqxljegsLgC+p+5EdTt9yGwI9poIfrUbBjwqcJ/6K4Av/kUHuqrCbX8WAtHZd7PDye6A8f/94mswAFSN7qUBYQz5Y/uztvAU0pEiddhyI268w4Q8225gBw7+CYvEJL7yz7Pa1U6wcJ41En4X9jZIcDfDU9b3rLFeNK/32IryvipJ7N4SryZow17FN/DN6dhdVSacVn+5AJ/WeerAokz9WjGYUniqCYfaKCta1MlSEB67LxJxeZijRVjjCasXu9Naro96m7epHq/hFTjGggsdLR3RjKG8g2hDSBzCKjkDMdcYaUqAy0cbxA== X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 922911 DOT 34246 DOT bm AT omp1015 DOT mail DOT bf1 DOT yahoo DOT com X-YMail-OSG: gZsuLi0VM1l3wYyBZb6xA5FwSKA9oI_jPu7nxXHDD_6mdzrXsNPPVPYcB6J3LrY RVUITRNTUFuH6BVdCw9QphtjxDIJX.EKR4vNWu_xpk6pb8MnMTDemWret89Gt3M5nCvEhiQmGw2_ lqLb3fFbIFetpP.JXSC0vKaHQ4.v7L_Icjk0MgvD1PcvPIATD39tHduQthYVIBjMlowbQ.Wocq16 GFT4wyuOH7n1r4J2RR69.lW2brGZZ4C3RQ8JZ1OpODjbIvto.GCBDZhscvpthn7X6vqcsruEcxVR t74zqqfNdW2ygWLKwLmBXSZ.UdRWRFIGUmXpS7PllXBiUDlgalS3Qe_Uw6RaejQqvUC2thY5zUv4 v6cx6bLDRlfFfz5tBOmnHcaVFAvjdfT86Ac0BJXvBVGQUieOsuZ0kma9MU2NWL1m3uLnJ4DiFKvv FaofvJhZAQBHLGI3yKthjqhrccTuXhS2I3xl5mkXbABr_7g.kWAW1we5H5gntL2VC.e53lkijs7Z0 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 05:39:54 +0000 (UTC) From: "Keantoken (keantoken AT yahoo DOT com) [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" To: "geda-help AT delorie DOT com" Message-ID: <154458525.2834155.1440913194077.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [geda-help] General PCB Layout Question on Two Layer Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2834154_610399382.1440913194073" Reply-To: geda-help AT delorie DOT com Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com X-Mailing-List: geda-help AT delorie DOT com X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com Precedence: bulk ------=_Part_2834154_610399382.1440913194073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is one of the most difficult problems of PCB design I think. Making a = 2-sided board that's not susceptible to EMI means coupling the signal and r= eturn paths as well as the power paths. You want all significant currents t= o be in pairs so that the fields will cancel. It helps to know which nodes = in your circuit are susceptible to leakage from which other nodes and which= kind of parasitics. You can identify several traces which hardly matter at= all and abuse them to make room for the important traces. And often you ca= n also say that a parasitic will be helpful at a certain node. Using a uniform ground plane with a 2-layer board means your traces may hav= e to be MUCH longer and thinner in order to get everything without jumpers.= So a good question to ask is, when do the parasitics of a long and/or thin= trace outweigh the benefits of a ground plane?=20 On Sunday, August 30, 2015 12:05 AM, "Stan Katz (stan DOT katz DOT hk AT gmail DOT co= m) [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" wrote: =20 First, I would like to mention that although I'm just a hobbyist, I lurk o= n geda-user. I had been hoping and watching to see if a new PCB was going t= o be released. I don't intend to understand the subtleties of the discussio= ns on geda-user, but I did note igor2's pcb-rnd fork was available. I didn'= t think I would bother with it, since it wasn't official, but a problem cro= pped up, that made me change my mind. I had laid out a board in 1.9.1 which= I compiled from source. When I tried to export the board to Postscript, 1.= 9.1, PCB segfaulted. I switched to my distribution's PCB =C2=A0(20140316) a= nd that version also segfaulted. I decided that I should try pcb-rnd. Lucky= for me, pcb-rnd didn't segfault. The trace colors were also nicely saturat= ed, and easier on my old eyes. Give Igor2 one thumbs up from a rank amateur= hobbyist....for what that's worth.=C2=A0 Now, to get down to my issue, I'm hoping that you can guide me towards a bo= ok on producing excellent two layer boards for precision analog projects. Y= ou pros probably reference books from Montrose, and Ott for your work. That= 's great for 4 layers and up. These sources dismiss 2 layer board from the = get go. The only advise directed towards 2 layer I could find was in a TI j= ournal. That advise, was....use one layer devoted entirely to ground, and t= hen spend the rest of your life soldering jumpers on the component layer. N= O THANK YOU! Talented engineers back in the '60s and '70s were able to prod= uce quality two sided analog boards without jumpers. There must have been a= book, or two ( undoubtedly out of print now ) that guided designers back t= hen. Can you help me out here? Stan ------=_Part_2834154_610399382.1440913194073 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is one of the most difficult problem= s of PCB design I think. Making a 2-sided board that's not susceptible to E= MI means coupling the signal and return paths as well as the power paths. Y= ou want all significant currents to be in pairs so that the fields will can= cel. It helps to know which nodes in your circuit are susceptible to leakag= e from which other nodes and which kind of parasitics. You can identify sev= eral traces which hardly matter at all and abuse them to make room for the = important traces. And often you can also say that a parasitic will be helpf= ul at a certain node.

Using a uniform ground pla= ne with a 2-layer board means your traces may have to be MUCH longer and th= inner in order to get everything without jumpers. So a good question to ask= is, when do the parasitics of a long and/or thin trace outweigh the benefi= ts of a ground plane?


=
On Sunday, August 30, 2015 12:05 AM, "Stan Katz (stan DOT katz DOT hk AT gmail DOT com) = [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-help AT delorie DOT com> wrote:


First, I would like to mention that although I'm just a hobbyist, I lurk= on geda-user. I had been hoping and watching to see if a new PCB was going= to be released. I don't intend to understand the subtleties of the discuss= ions on geda-user, but I did note igor2's pcb-rnd fork was available. I did= n't think I would bother with it, since it wasn't official, but a problem c= ropped up, that made me change my mind. I had laid out a board in 1.9.1 whi= ch I compiled from source. When I tried to export the board to Postscript, = 1.9.1, PCB segfaulted. I switched to my distribution's PCB  (20140316)= and that version also segfaulted. I decided that I should try pcb-rnd. Luc= ky for me, pcb-rnd didn't segfault. The trace colors were also nicely satur= ated, and easier on my old eyes. Give Igor2 one thumbs up from a rank amate= ur hobbyist....for what that's worth. 

Now, to get down to my issue, I'm hoping that you can guide me towards a= book on producing excellent two layer boards for precision analog projects= . You pros probably reference books from Montrose, and Ott for your work. T= hat's great for 4 layers and up. These sources dismiss 2 layer board from t= he get go. The only advise directed towards 2 layer I could find was in a T= I journal. That advise, was....use one layer devoted entirely to ground, an= d then spend the rest of your life soldering jumpers on the component layer= . NO THANK YOU! Talented engineers back in the '60s and '70s were able to p= roduce quality two sided analog boards without jumpers. There must have bee= n a book, or two ( undoubtedly out of print now ) that guided designers bac= k then.

Can you help me out here?

Stan


------=_Part_2834154_610399382.1440913194073--