From: "M. Schulter" Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.djgpp Subject: Re: docs and ng posting (Was: Re: Newbie question, newbie error) Date: 19 Feb 1998 03:47:54 GMT Organization: Value Net Internetwork Services Inc. Lines: 113 Message-ID: <6cga1a$hq0$1@vnetnews.value.net> References: <01bd15fe$38440420$61f0a3c6 AT robbbeggs> NNTP-Posting-Host: value.net To: djgpp AT delorie DOT com DJ-Gateway: from newsgroup comp.os.msdos.djgpp Precedence: bulk Winter wrote: : Sorry to quote so much, but is seemed to cover the right topics. As a : lnguistics major, I get to review many things relating to language. A : fairly hot topic is the use of the internet as a communication device. : (primarily the web, then usenet) Papers I have read present the theory : that there is a high intimidation value to enter conversation for a newbie. Hello, there. Having come to Usenet only within the past two years, I would say that this "factor" varies in intensity. It may depend on the specific problem at hand, as well as on the nature of the newsgroup. For example, when I first started using DJGPP, I felt a bit intimidated about compiling GNU Emacs for DOS -- an issue which newbies likely would not choose to face immediately now, since a compiled version is available as part of DJGPP. At that time, one very dedicated developer here suggested that it might be curious for a newbie to feel intimidated, since configuring and compiling Emacs required typing only two command lines. In fact, I would now say that I can appreciate both viewpoints. To explain why I felt a bit "intimidated" by the idea of actually _compiling Emacs_, although in fact the statement about doing it with two command lines (plus some preliminaries before entering those lines) was quite correct, why not consider the "hurdles" from a newbie-eye view. Again, I emphasize that today, GNU Emacs is available as a compiled binary, so this is history for the sake of illustration: (1) While I was used to downloading and handling PKZIP files, installing GNU Emacs would at that time (mid-1996) involve getting a _10M_ file in tar.gz format, a rather big leap from a DOS-oriented beginner's viewpoint. Of course, in reality, djtar handled the job smoothly apart from a few 8x3 name duplications in files not even relevant to a DOS installation. (2) At the time, after developing enough confidence (or curiosity) to download the archive, I concluded that a short README.DOS file or the like which I could read or downloaded to learn about what would be involved in installing Emacs would have "broken the ice." As it was, a DJGPP developer's reassurance that only two command lines would be required served the same purpose, and today the compiled binaries as well as lots of documentation within the DJGPP archives would respond to such a need very well, I suspect. (3) Having never compiled _anything_ to my best knowledge before getting DJGPP, I was unfamiliar with the process, beyond compiling my own hello.c types of programs. The idea of compiling something as big as Emacs seemed rather overwhelming, although logically I knew that the compiler would do the work. Maybe some reports of problems, which can happen with _any_ program, tempted me to reason, "If experienced users can have difficulties compiling this very complex program, who am I to attempt it as a rank newbie? Wouldn't that be almost looking for trouble, or creating needless complications for people who might try to answer my questions?" In overcoming such obstacles, conceptual or otherwise, mutual trust on all sides can help a great deal. This means recognizing that a newbie may feel intimidated by unfamiliar things which are really simple, and that experienced users (or FAQ's and README.DOS docs, etc.) can do a great deal to address these points of insecurity. : Why? Because usenet (to the newbie) appears to be full of self rghteous : bastards who enjoy answering people, but in a way that is rather rude. : Though this may not be the fact, it is the perception. And before you : defend your particular newsgroup, realize that that is irrelevant. Usenet : is viewed as one big body. As one fairly recent newbie, I would say that I took each newsgroup as its own special case. One of the fun things was that although I was new to C and UNIX (used on my ISP shell account) as well as to DJGPP, I could learn some great items from the FAQ to answer common newbie questions. This was maybe unfair "beginner's luck" -- for example, starting out with a 4-bute int and a protected mode compiler, I was a bit amused by the questions about why assuming an int is 2 bytes might lead to unexpected results in DJGPP. My response was and is to explain quicly that DJGPP is indeed a 32-bit compiler, and to reference the FAQ. : as far as the comment that I assume that answering newbie questions annoys : you, well, the comment that started some of this was someone commenting : that they were getting sick of the nature of some of the questions. Having seen these questions for far less time than many DJGPP regulars, I can understand a certain feeling of, "Yet again...??," but in fact I would agree with others that patience answers are the norm, and that at least some of us wouldn't want it any other way -- although we might not object to people reading the FAQ, either . : Now, I'm wondering if I should even post this, 'cuz its likely a topic : thats been beaten to death. Oh well :) It's a topic that often comes up, and I see a spirit of mutual goodwill as the best solution: (1) DJGPP regulars should assume that newbies are trying their best to understand the docs -- or to find them as suggested in the Mini-FAQ, etc.; (2) DJGPP newbies should assume that regulars are seeking to be as helpful as possible, with a pointer to the FAQ often the best as well as the most efficient form of help. : Be true Let's be true to ourselves, each other, and the highest standards of Usenet hospitality -- a nontrivial goal, but one maybe worth affirming. Most respectfully, Margo Schulter mschulter AT value DOT net