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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:02:26 -0500
From: Paul McFerrin <pmcferrin AT columbus DOT rr DOT com>
Reply-To: pmcferrin AT columbus DOT rr DOT com
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To: Dave Korn <dave DOT korn DOT cygwin AT googlemail DOT com>,
   Chris Faylor <cygwin AT cygwin DOT com>
Subject: Re: Your setting Return-Path to YOU in your cygwin AT cygwin postings
References: <49ADA916 DOT 40700 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com> <49ADBA0D DOT 6040405 AT gmail DOT com> <49ADEF5E DOT 3060804 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com> <49ADF5B5 DOT 5000102 AT gmail DOT com> <49AE0F52 DOT 1060006 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com> <49AE6F03 DOT 5040003 AT gmail DOT com>
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I thank you both for enlightning me on this subject.

I'm using the Thunderbird email client.  I have observed that it is 
wrongly using the "Return-Path" and not the "Reply-To" even in the email 
composing phase before the ISP gets involved.  I'll watch that more or 
seekout a RFC compliant email client.

Just doing a "Reply" is definitely NOT an automated response.  Thanks 
for the unblock.

Thanks, Paul

Thunderbird Version 2.0.0.19 (20081209)


Dave Korn wrote:
> [ This is completely off-topic, so moved to the proper list. ]
> Paul McFerrin wrote:
>   
>> Dave:
>>
>> I examined your email headers and discovered that in your postings to 
>> cygwin ARGH DO NOT POST EMAIL ADDRESSES TO THE LIST cygwin.com, you are
>> setting "Return-Path: <dave.korn.cygwin PCYMTNQREAIYR googlemail.com>" in
>> your email header so naturally everyone who is "replying" to sender will be
>> sending YOU their reply, not cygwin ARGH cygwin.com.  This could explain why you
>> are getting so much direct replies.
>>     
>
>   That's not actually what's happening.  Here is the raw text of my most
> recent list posting at sourceware:
>
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49ADFA41.4050308%40gmail.com
>
>   As you can see there is no such header.  Here are a few others; likewise.
>
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49ADE7FF.80005%40gmail.com
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49ADE7DC.6030205%40gmail.com
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49ADBA0D.6040405%40gmail.com
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49AD9861.7050601%40gmail.com
>
>   Notice how the Return-Path in all of these posts is a munged version of the
> list subscriber name, as should be the case in all posts sent out by the
> sourceware mailing lists; that way, if mail bounces, it is returned to the
> list daemon, which can find out which list subscriber is bouncing and stop
> sending messages if they carry on bouncing them for too long.
>
>   Note also how all those paths have a Mail-Followup-To header pointing at the
> list.  Any mailer that does not respect that when you hit Reply is broken and
> does not comply with internet standards.  The Return-Path is for automated
> error messages *only*, not replies of any sort.
>
>   Also, here is a screenshot of my email settings, where I do not have any
> Reply-To header set:
>
> http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3118/mysettings.png
>
>   You'll just have to take my word for it that I haven't changed them since
> you suggested this, although the historical record of my posts in the archive
> backs me up on this.  Here also are the headers of one of the posts in my
> local sent items folder (modulo obvious anti-spam munging)
>
> >From - Tue Mar 03 23:15:26 2009
> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00800000
> X-Mozilla-Keys:
>
> Message-ID: <49ADBA0D DOT 6040405 AT gmail DOT com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:15:25 +0000
> From: Dave Korn <dave SPOT korn SPOT cygwin SPLAT gmail SPOT com>
> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: cygwin SPLAT cygwin SPOT com
> Subject: Re: concurrent use of cygwin1.dll for 1.5 & 1.7 ??
> References: <49ADA916 DOT 40700 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com>
> In-Reply-To: <49ADA916 DOT 40700 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> corresponding to the message mentioned previously at
>
> http://sourceware.org/cgi-bin/get-raw-msg?listname=cygwin&date=2009-03&msgid=49ADBA0D.6040405%40gmail.com
>
>   Note that it also has no return-path header.
>
>   Also, to see how the email headers look when they're received downstream
> from sourceware, I went to gmane to look for the same post there.
>
> Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail
> From: Dave Korn <dave SPOT korn SPOT cygwin SPLAT googlemail SPOT com>
> Newsgroups: gmane.os.cygwin
> Subject: Re: concurrent use of cygwin1.dll for 1.5 & 1.7 ??
> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:15:25 +0000
> Lines: 17
> Approved: news SPLAT gmane SPOT org
> Message-ID: <49ADBA0D DOT 6040405 AT gmail DOT com>
> References: <49ADA916 DOT 40700 AT columbus DOT rr DOT com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1236121596 6607 80.91.229.12 (3 Mar 2009 23:06:36 GMT)
> X-Complaints-To: usenet SPLAT ger SPOT gmane SPOT org
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 23:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
> To: cygwin SPLAT cygwin SPOT com
> Original-X-From: cygwin-return-148486-goc-cygwin=m SPOT gmane SPOT org SPLAT
> cygwin SPOT com Wed Mar 04 00:07:52 2009
> Return-path: <cygwin-return-148486-goc-cygwin=m SPOT gmane SPOT org SPLAT
> cygwin SPOT com>
> Envelope-to: goc-cygwin SPLAT gmane SPOT org
> Original-Received: from sourceware.org ([209.132.176.174])
> 	by lo.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.50)
> 	id 1LediC-0006oG-50
> 	for goc-cygwin SPLAT gmane SPOT org; Wed, 04 Mar 2009 00:07:44 +0100
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> (74.125.78.145)     by sourceware.org (qpsmtpd/0.43rc1) with ESMTP; Tue, 03
> Mar 2009 23:06:07 +0000
> Original-Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 26so497818eyw.20
>      for <cygwin SPLAT cygwin SPOT com>; Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:06:04 -0800 (PST)
> Original-Received: by 10.210.117.1 with SMTP id
> p1mr1670744ebc.9.1236121564306;         Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:06:04 -0800 (PST)
> Original-Received: from ?82.6.108.62?
> (cpc2-cmbg8-0-0-cust61.cmbg.cable.ntl.com [82.6.108.62])         by
> mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k9sm10716748nfh.62.2009.03.03.15.06.03
> (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);         Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:06:04 -0800 (PST)
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> Original-Sender: cygwin-owner SPLAT cygwin SPOT com
> Mail-Followup-To: cygwin SPLAT cygwin SPOT com
> Delivered-To: mailing list cygwin SPLAT cygwin SPOT com
> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.os.cygwin:104617
> Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.cygwin/104617>
>
>   As before, you can see that the return path is the proper bounce address for
> auto-unsubscribing, and the Mail-Followup-To points to the list.
>
>
>
>
>   So, I trust there is no doubt that at least one of us knows how to drive a
> mailer.  However, I'm willing to take your word for it that you have
> experienced some kind of confusion or misunderstanding at your end through no
> malicious intent of your own.  It strikes me that you could be the innocent
> victim of a buggy mail server at your ISP.  (Come to think of it, this is RR
> we're talking about; it would be a surprise if you /weren't/ suffering from
> lousy servers at your ISP....)  You were unlucky to be the 'n'th person in a
> row to mail me and be there at just the point when I lost patience, but I
> don't suppose they all have faulty ISP mailservers.
>
>   The text in RFC5321 that defines the Return-Path header is as follows:
>
> When the delivery SMTP server makes the "final delivery" of a
>    message, it inserts a return-path line at the beginning of the mail
>    data.  This use of return-path is required; mail systems MUST support
>    it.  The return-path line preserves the information in the <reverse-
>    path> from the MAIL command.  Here, final delivery means the message
>    has left the SMTP environment.  Normally, this would mean it had been
>    delivered to the destination user or an associated mail drop, but in
>    some cases it may be further processed and transmitted by another
>    mail system.
>
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321)
>
>   What this implies is that the bogus Return-Path header must have been
> generated at your ISP mailserver, and I can guess what it's doing wrong: it's
> using the address in the From: line in the email (rfc822) headers, rather than
> the address in the "MAIL FROM" command when it receives the email from
> sourceware.org, which sourceware.org will be presenting as the munged version
> containing the subscribed user's address.
>
>   So, I see that you are the victim of an unfortunate accident, although I
> maintain that sending me the same request twice five minutes apart was a bit
> pushy.  I've unblocked your address; please remember that, through no fault of
> your own, you'll have to take more care in future.
>
>     cheers,
>       DaveK
>
>
>
>
>   

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