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Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:19:35 -0400
From: Christopher Faylor <cgf AT redhat DOT com>
To: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Subject: Re: Moving cygwin discussions to Usenet? (e.g., alt.os.cygwin)
Message-ID: <20021001011935.GF6181@redhat.com>
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On Mon, Sep 30, 2002 at 05:16:53PM -0700, Eduardo Chappa wrote:
>*** Christopher Faylor (cgf AT redhat DOT com) wrote today:
>It's basically a situation in which you don't want to be involved, and
>that's fine, but why complain about it, if it's not going to affect you
>in any way.  I don't see the point.

As long as you and others are going to be making observations in a
mailing list which I am reading, I'll probably be trying to correct
misapprehensions where I see them.  I actually refrained from commenting
until you specifically asked for my opinion so now you are getting it
in ever increasing detail.

>:) A question like (to use a recent example) "Why doesn't vim notice when
>:) I resize a console window under cygwin?" will lead to cygwin insights.
>:) I'd rather see those kind of questions asked in the official forum and
>:) point the bash people to the appropriate documentation.
>
>As I pointed out before, part of the problem is to learn to diagnose it.
>You certainly know how to do that, and know which questions are
>appropriate in each forum, not everyone knows that (as obvious as this may
>seem to you),

Did I say that people should innately know that their bash question was
a generic one?  No, I didn't.  I said that their bash question should be
answered by pointing to the appropriate documentation.  I didn't endorse
calling the person an idiot or trumpeting knowledge of what is
appropriate or not.  I just think that teaching people how to do their
own research and maybe how to do some problem solving on their own has
good long term benefits both for the individual and for society.

It sounds like the main problem may be that people are embarrassed when
they are told "Here's where you can find the answer".  That's unfortunate,
if true.

>so give them a way to ask those questions, even if they ask a question
>which is not "obviously" cygwin related.

And, we have that:  It's called the cygwin mailing list.  If someone asks
a question that is not appropriate they are nearly always told where they
can find the answer.

>Let me give you an example, I am seeing a problem in Pine (and this
>happened to me!), in which I want to copy messages between systems (from a
>folder in a local directory to a folder in a remote server, accessed
>through IMAP). Every time I attempt to do this I get a message back saying
>"closed connection (data)". Question. Do I ask the question of why this is
>failing in the cygwin mailing list or not?

Is it a problem with a cygwin port of pine or with an imap running under
cygwin?  If so, of course you can ask it in the cygwin mailing list.  That
is *exactly* why we have the cygwin mailing list.

If you read this list for any amount of time you'll see that there are
all sorts of questions about (for instance) cron and ssh.  Are they
always cygwin-specific questions?  Who knows?  The questions get
answered or not and sometimes you find that after investigation they are
not cygwin specific at all.  Sometimes they don't get answered at all,
just like every other mailing list or newsgroup in the world.

Who cares?  There is nothing in the mailing list charter that implies
you have to be clairvoyant to post.  There is also no guarantee that
your question will be answered.  However, no one should draw the conclusion
that the question wasn't answered because it was too "newbie-ish" or
"not cygwin related".

Assuming that you did ask this question in this new cygwin newsgroup, it
sure sounds like you are going to be expecting some kind of expert help
from (maybe) a pine maintainer.  That might be good for pine if you are
going to be reading the newsgroup.  It won't be very good for other
packages (e.g., cron, ssh) where the maintainer will not necessarily be
reading the sanctioned forum for discussing such issues.

So, actually, your example sounds like exactly the wrong kind of thing
for the newsgroup.  This isn't really a newbie question.  It's more of
a in-depth debugging question which I would not have expected for what
you are proposing.

>It may be that the answer has to do with cygwin (e.g (e)), or it may be
>(a), regardless of whatever it is, the question must be asked in order to
>try to understand what the real answer is.

As long as you're asking a question about a cygwin port of pine, ask the
question.  I'm surprised that this is at all confusing.

>Because of the policy of questions in this list, I do not believe a
>question like this will come out any time soon.

Sorry but you're wrong.  This is not against list policy.  What could we
possibly even discuss in the cygwin mailing list if we couldn't discuss
problems with packages that come with the cygwin mailing list?

>I am not trying to sell refrigerators in the north pole,

I'm not in any way doubting your sincerity or your desire to help.  It
sounds like you're just working from faulty premises, though.

>You've already shown that there are scenarios in this newsgroup in
>which you do not want to participate, and that's fine.  Everyone is
>welcome to come and participate or simply not to join.  I see no reason
>why you put such a bad tag in a project that doesn't exist (yet).  This
>sounds like you are sending a message of not participating to others,
>not as a statement of your beliefs, which you have already stated
>repeatedly over and over.

Actually, in this thread, I expressed my opinion (at your request) here:

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01497.html
with a clarification (which I am sure was still misinterpreted) here:
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01498.html

and here:
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01510.html

And now in response to your email.

You have expressed your views here:
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01491.html
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01506.html
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2002-09/msg01514.html

(and have implied your enthusiasm about the project in other messages
as well)

So, it sure sounds like if I am repeating myself over and over, I am
probably at least tied with you.

Regardless, I am not sure why you are adopting this tactic.  If you are
going to stand in my front lawn with waving placards don't be surprised
if I occasionally wonder outside to comment on same.

>:)Again, I have to wonder who would want to hang out in such a forum.  I
>:)also have to wonder how it would be possible that this one place on the
>:)internet could be carved out differently than every other place I've
>:)seen.
>
>See?

And here's the third time, you've implied that I don't have the right to
offer opinions.  And you think *I'm* repetitive.

cgf

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