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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:49:12 +0100
From: Raphael <raphael AT oninet DOT pt>
cc: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Subject: Re: FYI: HTML targets in "Smart Questions"
In-Reply-To: <20020723061237.B9184@ns.helixdigital.com>
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On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:50PM +0100, Raphael wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dario Alcocer wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > Moderation? Don´t start me on that one. In the end Moderation only
> > resolves in new not cygwin lists that will attrackt trolls to the cygwin
> > list. I'm glad to eleborate if this is not clear.
>
> No need to elaborate, I'm well aware of the "double-edged sword"
> aspects of moderation.  Besides, if you read again what I wrote,
> I'm referring to a very limited form of moderation, which only
> affects the initial post made by all subscribers.  That hardly seems
> like a detail to "get started" on.

Yes it is, becouse your not talking about a first or second posting but
about access to the list through a quiz. If I get this wrong then excuse
me.

> > Who asked them to school new users? Now don't get me wrong, anybody's
> > contribution is valuable and special. But if people think they have to
> > school fellow list members and are irritated by that it might be a good
> > idea for them to take some time of?
>
> Well, you're right, no one *asked* them.  However, as ESR's essay
> points out, community standards don't come for free.  They have to
> be enforced and communicated (what I referred to as "schooling"),
> and the problem with many new users that participate in public
> mailing lists is that they don't realize that a certain standard
> of conduct is expected of them in order to keep the mailing list
> working for the common good.

Include The Aunt Emily Faq in the welcome faq I would suggest, I myself
hate forinstance the wellbehaved educaters on this list who do not seem to
understand how the quoting machanisme works and persist in giving answers
above a message. But this is not the issue here.

> Now granted, you may argue that there are other waysto familiarize
> new users with the standards of conduct.  You seem to prefer the
> FAQ.  I guess I prefer the immediate feedback provided by auto-reply
> to initial posters.

I can accept that.

> > [snip]
> > I subscibed
> > using the site and remeber clearly that there was somekind of incentive
> > there and if I'm not mistaking the manual states something alike. What a
> > lot of people forget is that for a newbee it is not always clear where to
> > find the right answer or faq.
>
> Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always clear.  In fact, I
> think you may have just corroborated what I've observed for a long
> time; information is only *useful* when you are *expecting* to
> receive it.
>
> Trying to tell a new user how to ask questions in the subscription
> confirmation is *not* effective because it is *ignored*.  The new
> user isn't *ready* to hear about "how to ask smart questions"
> immediately upon subscribing.  The information is irrelevant at
> that moment, since they're *not* asking a question at that particular
> moment.  However, they will be more receptive when they are trying
> to get help for the first time; this is the correct time to tell
> them.

I'm aware of social engineering, I also aware that this can be overdone,
IMHO you will just create a disappointment, somebody mailing for the first
time denying an answer (or at least an answer where they didn't ask for)
will disencourage the use of cygwin.

> The moment they're ready to ask their first question on the list
> is *precisely* the moment you want to inform them of the minimum
> requirements that they are expected to meet.  This the reason why
> I think blocking first-time posts and automatically informing the
> requester they can re-submit their question (after they've read
> ESR's essay) is better.
>
> > Well as you noticed I think it's better to give 'hardworking people' their
> > own list where they will not be bothered. I could even agree to make that
> > accesible by an exame ;-)
>
> Well, I don't agree, but of course, you have the right to your
> opinion :-P
>
> Seriously, though, I don't think that you want to separate newbies
> because then, newbies will probably never become gurus.  We *want*
> more gurus, because the more gurus we have, the more questions get
> answered, and by extension, the more newbies that are helped.

Don't you really see where you go wrong, I find it offending to have to
think I'm engineerd to become a Guru, this is manipulative to the extend
of discusting.

> My impression is that Chris, Chuck and the other gurus don't mind
> answering questions, per se.  They just would like the requesters
> to do a little homework before they ask, that's all.

I propose a cygwin-gurus.

> > > == Footnotes ==
> > >
> > > [1] - One other way to do this is to include a link to the ESR essay
> > > in the confirmation e-mail subscribers receive, but I *doubt* very
> > > much that most would take the time to read it then.  However, if
> > > we instead wait to ask them when they're focused on getting their
> > > first question answered, we can hopefully start teaching them the
> > > fine art of asking questions.
> >
> > Is that what this list is for?
>
> No, but surely if *everyone* on this list (gurus and newbies alike)
> asked questions the "smart way" we'd all reap the benefits of a
> better and more fruitful mailing list.

If you send them to redhat university they wouldn't even have to ask smart
questions, they would know smart answers upfront and where a hat (probably
red) with the letters Guru on it.

> Thanks for your comments, you've helped me sharpen my thinking on
> this somewhat controversial topic.

Thank you for your comments.

Raphael who is now somewhat upset.


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