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Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:49:09 -0400
From: Charles Wilson <cwilson AT ece DOT gatech DOT edu>
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To: Michael Smith <smith AT xml-doc DOT org>
CC: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
Subject: Re: name: GNU/Cygwin system
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Michael Smith wrote:
> I'm not trolling (and maybe for all I know, this has already been
> talked out) but I wanted to suggest that it might be appropriate for
> Cygwin to describe and advertise itself as the "GNU/Cygwin system",
> giving credit where credit it very much due -- just as Debian does by
> describing itself as a "GNU/Linux" system.
> 
> IMO, the fact the GNU system (not the Linux kernel) is really the
> essential ingredient is pointed to by the fact that many of the same
> concerns that affect maintainers of the various Linux distros (and
> especially, maintainers of packages on those distros) also very much
> affect Cygwin maintainers and packagers.
> 
> For example, it seems like representatives from Cygwin should be
> involved with the Linux Standard Base effort:
> 
>   http://www.linuxbase.org/
> 
> And the effort should be called "GNU Standard Base" instead (though I
> realize that's not s ever actually going to happen).

Yes.  It's already been discussed and dismissed. A non-troll would have 
the decency to search the mailing list archives first and verify that 
YES, this issue has been discussed already, and acknowledge the points 
raised in the previous discussion -- BEFORE bringing it up again.

IMNSHO, the GNU Glory Brigade can go to hell.  I appreciate what 
GNU/FSF/RMS has done for truly free software -- but turning around and 
attempting to claim ownership and naming rights on every piece of free 
software on earth is NOT acceptable.

Cygwin (the platform) has software from apache (not GNU), XFree86 (not 
GNU), openssh/openssl (not GNU), pine (not GNU), unzip/zip (not 
GNU)...and many others that are NOT GNU.  Cygwin is not GNU/Cygwin. For 
the same reasons, Linux is not GNU/Linux.  Anyone who thinks differently 
is buying in to the cult of personality (sic) of RMS.  Just because 
Debian has followed the pied piper doesn't mean we have to line up with 
the other children.

And on a cygwin-specific note, I'm sure RMS doesn't want anything to do 
with us.  I think he's probably a bit PO'ed that ANY GNU software is 
running on a proprietary platform like windows. He views that as 
enabling behavior...enabling people to stay locked in the proprietary 
prison.  For RMS, like all ideologues, it is all or nothing -- there is 
no half loaf.  I sure he doesn't WANT the name GNU associated with 
Cygwin/Windows.  (To be clear: I'm glad RMS/FSF/GNU is out there.  The 
world NEEDS such ideologues -- to keep the rest of us honest.  But that 
doesn't mean we must always agree with them or obey them.)

Further, for the same reasons, no GNU-purist would EVER have put the 
hundreds of hours into porting and packaging that the volunteer 
maintainers here have done -- for a "platform" that exists on top of a 
(gasp, horror) proprietary OS.  As Robert has pointed out, the 
contributions of those maintainers are equally if not more important to 
cygwin than those of GNU.  Without the VM's, there would be no GNU 
software -- or non-GNU software -- on the cygwin platform.  Without GNU, 
we would be missing many packages -- some very important, like gcc.  So, 
if we rename stuff, it would be just as valid to say, as Robert does, 
that it should be cgf/djd/cv/ed/rc/lh/eb/jt/Cygwin.  But English is not 
Entish -- we don't tell the entire lifestory of a project within the 
project's name.

As far as the LSB goes, currently it applies only to linux-based 
systems; GNU/Hurd isn't "out" yet.  But, there's no reason why the LSB 
wouldn't apply equally well to BSD systems, which don't necessarily have 
any GNU software on them.  So GNU-SB is also incorrect.  (The GNU Glory 
Brigade reminds me of US Senator Byrd of West Virginia -- there's not a 
bridge or a hospital or park bench built in that state that isn't named 
after "Robert C. Byrd".  They don't call Byrd the king of pork for nothing.)

To tell you the truth, I don't see there being much hope -- or reason 
for -- the LSB to take cygwin into account.  Thanks to various 
microsoftisms, we're too weird.  Non-ELF shared libraries split into 
"runtime" and "linktime" pieces.  Runtime loader works completely 
differently than ld.so, so library versioning is handled completely 
differently.  Then, we have two different windowing systems..."native" 
and "X" which must coexist.  The best I can see is for cygwin to take 
what LSB does, and try to follow it as best we can while making 
allowances for the uniqueness of the platform.  We are the best ones to 
judge where those allowances must be made -- not them.  While the linux 
distributors can (eventually) reach a compromise position that all linux 
distributions can follow, there is no "compromise" here -- they'd have 
to put "special case exceptions" in their document specifically for 
cygwin.  But there's no need to uglify the LSB with all that:

What is the main purpose of the LSB?  Binary interoperability, so that 
third party software vendors can ship ONE package that is guaranteed to 
work on every LSB-compliant Linux platform.  Doesn't really apply to 
cygwin...and oh, yeah, how does RMS feel about making life easier for 
proprietary (possibly closed source) vendors?  Would he want the name 
GNU associated with THAT?

--Chuck


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