Mailing-List: contact cygwin-help AT sourceware DOT cygnus DOT com; run by ezmlm List-Subscribe: List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: , Sender: cygwin-owner AT sources DOT redhat DOT com Delivered-To: mailing list cygwin AT sources DOT redhat DOT com Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:06 -0400 From: Christopher Faylor To: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com Subject: Re: Blunt Tools (was: cgf does not want private email about cygwin) Message-ID: <20010625145006.B12392@redhat.com> Reply-To: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com Mail-Followup-To: cygwin AT cygwin DOT com References: <20010625101924 DOT C9771 AT redhat DOT com> <20010625111149 DOT B1176 AT pinksheets DOT com> <3B375E40 DOT 1000304 AT ece DOT gatech DOT edu> <20010625133536 DOT A1280 AT pinksheets DOT com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.11i In-Reply-To: <20010625133536.A1280@pinksheets.com>; from kcollins@pinksheets.com on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:35:36PM -0400 On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:35:36PM -0400, Ken Collins wrote: >I find the non-answers annoying, personally. It's like taking a class where >the prof answers every question with "look it up in the book." I don't >enjoy seeing other people shamed. I just want to learn about cygwin. I prefer to teach people how to think rather than doing the thinking for them. I think that repeatedly telling people to use the resources available to them (google, mail archives, FAQ) is a method for doing that. Repetition is an important method for getting this point across. So, we have to keep hammering this point to make it effective. Doing the research yourself and answering every single repeated question with elaborate detail IMO 1) doesn't scale and 2) doesn't really teach. However, if this is something that you want to do, then you are welcome to do so. No one will "flame" you for answering the 5000th newbie "Where do I find cygwin1.dll" question. I really really do not view the act of telling other people how to help themselves as "shaming" them. I actually find that attitude both naive and frightening. Maybe that is just my conservative political leanings showing through. >If the tone of the list sours, it discourages people from contributing and >easing the load. I'm certainly reluctant to ask questions or get involved >in discussions that would involve me further in the code. I'm wondering why you are involved in this discussion, then? What about it makes you think that it will not degenerate into some kind of rude interchange? In my experience, philosophical discussions like this are more likely to result in harsh interchanges than questions about code. I suppose, YMMV. Anyway, the reality is that very very few people actually bother to look at the code. Most people here prefer to speculate on a program's behavior rather than actually invest in figuring it out for themselves. I call it the "I wonder if it's raining out" syndrome. >If it's really that bad, the core should set up a moderated low-traffic >list. Newbies and people getting up to speed like myself need a place >to ask stupid questions. The 3133+ could drop in when they're in the >mood. No one has suggested that people should not ask questions. You are apparently objecting to the "search google" responses but Chuck and others have indicated that, given the volume (among other things), there is only a limited amount of time that the old-timers can provide. So, I don't see how setting up a newbie mailing list would help. Are you expecting new people to step forward to answer questions in exhaustive detail? I would expect that if I set up a cygwin-newbies mailing list we'd just see a lot of cross posting between the two lists and it would actually end up just adding to the confusion. Actually, the "here's what you should do" attitude is also something about this list that bothers me. You very very rarely see that turned around to either "What can *I* do?" or even "Here's what I can do". That's too bad. There are always a vast number of things that the handful of people who contribute to the project can do, but if you divide a large number into a small number, what you get is a fraction. That's what we can provide. >I was surprised that the general cygwin list is this "strict", given that >there are the developers and apps lists for the more dedicated. There is little "strictness" here. We try to curb off-topic posts given the high volume of traffic. Other than that, pretty much anything goes. The bottom line is that you *are* using the software. You've gotten it for free. It is providing value. You can try to justify your non-contribution (whether it is in answering questions or contributing code) by thinking "They are all too rude. I'm not contributing" but that's really an ethical issue that is probably outside of the scope of this mailing list. I got started as a net contributor. I asked a few questions and figured out how to build cygwin myself. When I had problems with cygwin, I provided patches. Eventually someone suggested that I fill out the assignment form that would allow me to directly contribute and then eventually some poor misguided fool decided that Cygnus should hire me. I don't remember what the tone of the mailing list was like in 1997. All I know is that if I am using and enjoying something that I've gotten for free, I like to see if I can somehow return the favor in a sort of "pay it forward" type of scenario. I know that all of the actual contributors here are probably similarly motivated. And, nearly all of them are probably feeling the strain of the success that cygwin has been "suffering". cgf -- Want to unsubscribe from this list? Check out: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple