Subject: RE: Linux "bazaar" model (Re: Beta-19 and configurations....)
From: [email-masked] (Christopher Faylor)

14 Feb 1998 13:47:11 -0800
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]

I'm still not sure what you're talking about.

If I download the linux sources and build them, then I will have the
linux sources.

If I download a binary distribution from, say RedHat, then I will get a
binary distribution.

Including the sources with the cdk would mean adding another 24MB onto
the distribution (worst case) or around 2MB or so (best case).  Why are
we doing this, again?  For the twenty or thirty developers who might be
interested in hacking on the sources?

Are you under the impression that linux somehow sets itself up automatically
out of the box?  It doesn't.  In the rawest form, you download sources
from ftp.kernel.org and extract them onto your hard disk using (gasp)
tar and gzip.  Some package package maintainers have made things easier
with various tools (e.g., RPM).  These are third parties however and are
not part of the "official" linux distribution system.

Frankly, if a potential developer can't handle the chore of setting up
his/her system to build the cygwin sources I can't imagine that they would
be able to contribute to the project in any meaningful way.

The release maintainers *could* take some time to set things up so that
even the most unskilled newbie could set up his system to build the sources
but what is the benefit of that?  I'd rather that time was spent improving
cygwin, not diddling with scripts to make life easier for people who don't
want to or can't understand how to set up their systems themselves.

Anyway, you're *still* not getting it.  If you think this is a good idea,
why not take it upon yourself to set up some kind of auto-install system?
Submit if for approval to the mailing list.

As far as including editors, etc., with the package; I'm still in favor of
the linux model.  You can download whatever you want from the net.  Great
effort should be taken to ensure that UNIX applications compile "out of the
box" under CYGWIN.  Then, if you need an editor, download the sources and
compile it.

It would be nice for Cygnus to provide a web site with ported binaries
but it should be no great hardship to use other sites that are
frequently advertised on the mailing list.

I imagine that B19 will probably contain some extra libraries and/or
utilities that represent the natural evolution of CYGWIN that Cygnus has
derived from the mailing list.  I don't know that for sure, though.

It would also be nice for Cygnus to improve the instructions, provide scripts
to change symlinks, etc.  Once again, I have to emphasize that this is a
*free*software*project*.  It is essentially being managed in Geoffrey's
"spare time".  If you think that these are laudable goals WHY NOT SUBMIT
SOMETHING?  If you think that the documentation for setting up X is
incomplete, write some new documentation.  If you think a simple script would
be nice, write one and submit it.

All that I'm saying is that this "Why don't they just..." attitude is
rampant on this list.  There are only a handful of contributors here.
Mumit Khan is a contributor.  Vischne (sp?) is a contributor.  Sergey is
a (BIG) contributor.  There are five or six other people who are contributing
code.  Everyone else is saying "It seems to me..." and "I don't see why they
don't..."

Opinions are all very nice, but when the mailing list mix consists of 100
opinion posts, 300 newbie posts, and 10 posts with actual code or technical
insight, then CYGWIN will not advance very quickly.

>From: "Vassilii Khachaturov" <[email-masked]>
>Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:51:39 +0200
>
>Of course they are.  However, as opposed to, say, the previously
>mentioned linux dists, the sources are not included INTO THE MAIN
>DISTRIBUTION -- one need to download them separately and fear that he
>won't be able to compile them just because he doesn't install something
>with the environment.  Instead, think of a united dist.  (Or, even, a
>separate file, called, say, "cdk-src.exe" for the sources) that will
>set up the sources just where the cdk.exe set up the binaries, and
>explain AT THE SETUP STAGE that, "O.K., the sources are now set up,
>just do 1-2-3-4 (for details and questions see FAQ.txt), and your
>system will be updated.  If you choose to modify something and post
>your changes back to ...  (the list?  cygnus?  these central
>archives?), then preserve the old files, and prepare your patches using
>.........  etc.; if you wish to really contribute, please see the
>prioritized todo list at .....) Don't you think that would really make
>difference?  And doesn't it seem not that hard to do for the release
>maintainers?
>
>What's your opinion about the other things to bundle together with the
>sources to encourage people joining the devel.  effort by giving them a
>devel.  env.  having a "critical mass" of things in it?  I'm quoting
>that part of that original posting of mine:
>
>>* (previously discussed): termcap/curses, minimal terminal programs
>
>>* Natively compiled editors (vim, emacs --?) * a couple of terminal
>>games compiled btw check
>>http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~vassilii/pub/boa/
>>
>>* definitely the "remote" suite -- I personally have had several people
>>seduced into gnuwin32 just showing them a colorful telnet into Linux
>>with 'midnight commander' running there -- and a WORKING (as opposed to
>>the one from the NT resource kit) inetd just with the in.telnetd
>>capability.
>>
>>* think of package management and clean upgradability (wouldn't you
>>like a simple script to turn the symlinks from b18 to be "system" when
>>going coolview)
>>
>>* X11R6, clean instructions on setting up X server and links to all the
>>tested X server packages.
>>
>>I know the gnuwin32 goal is more like "you have the kernel, do things
>>yourselves" right now -- my cry is that this goal is old enough, and the
>>things grew, so why not changing the goal?  Setting up a primitive
>>archive network of ported things, someone specializing on
>>distributions/packaging -- and things will evolve faster.
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