Message-ID:	<007a01c05e18$6f420e80$534bdcc8@alain-nb>
From:	"Alain" <alainm AT pobox DOT com>
To:	<opendos AT delorie DOT com>
Subject:	Re: BASIC & EMS (was: Optimizing CONFIG.SYS...)
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:04:46 -0200
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Reply-To:	opendos AT delorie DOT com

Could people that don't know what they are talking about enquire
politely?

I don't like people bashing what they don't know and probably will
never undestand

Alain

>Okay, what the hello is XMS meory? Is it ENTEDED meory or just another
>stupid swap em out memory? Extended memory does not swapping you are in
>memory above 1MB when you use ectended memory and you are in protected
mode
>when using extended memory. In Task manager, you are in protected mode
and
>you use EXTENDED memory. There is no swapping of memory, each task is
>residing in a different area of memeory above 1MB and all you do when
you
>swap windows or apps is to simply jump to that area of memory.
Everything is
>running at the same time, it is multitasking, not the crap Gates came
out
>with that merely swaps things around. Check out Linux sometime and see
what
>is really, really TRUE MULITASKING.
>
>DV is not a true multi-tasker, it shares CPU time between applications
>loaded, just like Gates' stupid WINDOZE does. When you use EXTENDED
memory
>in protected mode, you actually run several processes simutaneously. In
>virtual 86 mode you actually have each process running jst as though
each
>one had it's own 8086 computer. It would be the same as running five
tasks
>on five IBM XTs. or PCs.
>
>So what is XMS. And what does Task manager use. I believe it uses DPMS
which
>is DOS Protected Mode Services. That is what I use for multi-tasking in
DOS.
>That is EXTENDED memory in PROTECTED MODE. I believe it is virtual 86
>protected mode that Task manager uses. There is no freeking memory
swapping
>with Task manager.
>
>Desqview, on the other hand, uses stupid time consumming memory
swapping
>through a tiny 64K window and uses stupid EMS to do it. Each process
running
>is swapped into and out of conventional memory.
>
>Task Manager DOES NOT do this.
>Don't get me wrong, I know that peole have an extremely hard time
>understanding the various memory areas and memory managers used and
they can
>sit down with a comprehensive book about it and read the book half a
dozen
>times and still not know what is going on with memory in the X86 line
of
>CPUs. I never will figure out why IBM chose the X86 rather than the
MC68000
>family or the Z8000 family or the MOS65000 family. They chose the worst
>possible CPU when they designed the PC after already having failed
twice to
>enter the PC market. As you can clearly see IBM has a GREAT track
record!!!!
>
>I do not think we are talking about the same thing here. There is
absolutely
>no swapping of memory with Task Manager. (except of course maybe some
video
>memory on your video card and other such things.)
>
>But I would like to know just what XMS memory is. I thought it was
extended
>memory, period. EXTENDED, PERIOD. If it is not EXTENDED memory then we
are
>deffinitely not talking about the same thing. I am talking about DPMS-
DOS
>PROTECTED MEMORY SERVICE, which is used with Task Manager. There is no
>stupid memory swapping involved.
>
>Try Linux sometime and you will not even mention things like EMS, XMS,
DPMS,
>DPMI,VCPI and a ton of other crap. Someone in this list said that
DOSLinux
>uses ext2 file system to work. I just checked the site out yesterday,
it is
>now called Loop Linux and IT DOES NOT have to use ext2fs, it still will
run
>on top of a 16 bit FAT or a 32 bit FAT. You can install it on your
current
>system and only takes about 25MB of drive space and 8 to 16 MB of swap
space
>if you do not have 32MB of RAM. It does need a 386 and at least 8MB
RAM.
>Check it out and you will find out what true multi-tasking is. It may
even
>be able to run on an NTFS or HPFS file system. I'll give the new one a
try
>one of these days. The old version I use is adequate for me at this
time.
>Since I am currently stuck with using IE.
>
>See end of message for a comment you make later in your message.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Arkady V.Belousov" <ark AT belous DOT munic DOT msk DOT su>
>To: <opendos AT delorie DOT com>
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 8:57 AM
>Subject: Re: BASIC & EMS (was: Optimizing CONFIG.SYS...)
>
>
>> X-Comment-To: Patrick Moran
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> 29-iIN-2000 19:19 pmoran22 AT yahoo DOT com (Patrick Moran) wrote to
>> <opendos AT delorie DOT com>:
>>
>> >> W.R.T. EMS, I recall reading somewhere that, rather than being
>> >> "Extremely inefficient", EMS is actually more efficient than XMS
>> >> (when based on either real hardware or the 386's magic tricks).
>> >> There were also "EMS simulator" software (286 stuff?), which
>> >> had to copy data to/from the page frame, hence these were
>> >> indeed inefficient - perhaps you were thinking of these?
>> PM> That could be or maybe I am thinking of the way MS crap for DOS 5
did
>it.
>> PM> You first had to have Extended memory then that is converted to
EMS
>memory.
>>
>>      Not necessary. For example, QEMM (unlike EMM386) gives access to
all
>> extended memory through both EMS and XMS API simultaneously.
>>
>> PM> However, no matter how it is done, you have a tiny little 64K
window
>of
>> PM> memory to shove stuff through from expanded memory to
conventional
>memory
>> PM> and conventional memory to expanded memory. When you use
something
>like
>>
>>      Not necessary. You can work with data directly in EMS pages
(four 16K
>> pages in 64K EMS frame).
>>
>> PM> Desqview and you have a large program over 500k in size and have
to
>swap
>> PM> portions of it out 64k at a time in 16k chunks.
>>
>>      Even in this case using EMS can be faster than XMS: for EMS you
use
>> plain "MOV CX,8000h/REP MOVSW" eight times+eight times EMS pages
>remapping,
>> with XMS you use block copying with (possible) much higher overhead
for
>> copy.
>>
>> PM> XMS. When a program is run in protected mode, there is no
swapping, it
>> PM> operates in exntended memory as originally designed to do. In
virtual
>86
>>
>>      Hm. Don't mix XMS and protected mode operation.
>>
>> PM> mode you can actually have a full 8086 computers installed many
times
>and
>> PM> each can share entended memory. This is what the DRDOS Task
manger
>does. It
>> PM> does not use EMS like Desqview and other so-called multitaskers
do via
>EMS
>> PM> memory.
>>
>>      Again: don't mix memory manager itself and XMS/EMS
specifications.
>>
>> PM> I am not positive what XMS memory is, it is not talked about in
"DOS
>Beyond
>> PM> 640K" book. I do remember something about QEMM converting
Extended
>memory to
>> PM> EMS then converting EMS memory back for use as Extended memory,
which
>is
>> PM> really, really stupid. Why not just use Extended memory directly
like
>DPMS
>> PM> does?????
>>
>>      ? You something muddle. QEMM doesn't "convert" anything. They
simply
>> gives access to extended memory through EMS and/or through XMS API.
>
>Through is the KEYWORD! I should have said through and not converted,
but it
>is the same when all the ashes land. It is still crap.
>
>Pat
>
>
>
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