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Mail Archives: opendos/2000/01/25/21:47:16

To: opendos AT delorie DOT com
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:12:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Using Loader with DRDOS and WIN95
Message-ID: <20000125.201728.-927299.3.editor@juno.com>
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From: Bruce Morgen <editor AT juno DOT com>
Reply-To: opendos AT delorie DOT com


On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:50:18 +0100 (MET) Bernie
<bernie AT mbox302 DOT swipnet DOT se> writes:
> Bruce Morgen wrote:
> (Please note that I left out most of the parts where I could say 
> something
> like "I agree.")
> 
> >That API exists only after 
> >the GUI is loaded and running.
> 
> Yes, that's correct.
> 
> >> IMHO those two are all that is needed for DOS (+ command.com or 
> >> something like it of course).
> >
> >Actually, only IO.SYS and a 
> >shell like COMMAND.COM are 
> >needed -- from DOS 7 on, 
> >MSDOS.SYS is a text file 
> >used by the GUI loader 
> >started by WIN.COM.  
> 
> You are very correct, sorry my misstake.

No problem, we live to 
serve.  :-)
> 
> >> In Win9x the computer boots DOS 
> >
> >Yes!
> >
> >> (with 32bit API) and 
> >
> >No -- this API doesn't exist 
> >until the GUI is running!
> 
> Hmm... Sorry but no. If that was the case then I couldn't be able to 
> start
> win.com at all on my computer since the 32bit APIs have a very nasty 
> bug in
> them that makes my AMD K6-2 400 stop ("IOS error" or somthing like 
> that). I have now installed the bugfix.

Sorry, you're logic here 
eludes me.  Are you implying 
that the "bugfix" is to a 
DOS component and not some 
part of the GUI?
> 
> >One can confirm the absence 
> >of the 32-bit API by the 
> >fact that no long filenames 
> >are visible unless the GUI 
> >is running!
> 
> Doesn't the 32bit API provide anything else but LFN and FAT32 
> support?

Yes, I'm just using those as 
indicators of the API's 
presence, not the (vast, I'm 
sure) extent of its services.
>  
> >Wrong.  These are DOS 7 files 
> >and can't run without a 
> >running GUI if you can do 
> >without long filename support.
> 
> I must say I have never tried... I'll do a test later today if I 
> remember.
> (setver.exe might be needed)

Nope.  XCOPY, FC, FORMAT, etc. 
in the WINDOWS\COMMAND 
directory will run fine in 
"Safe Mode Command Prompt 
Only," which is as raw a DOS 7 
as you can get!
> 
> >> * (more or less) impossible to install hardware into it
> >
> >Sorry, here we disagree.  If 
> >you do things in the correct 
> >order, Win95's hardware 
> >detection is really quite 
> >reliable given the correct 
> >driver(s).  
> 
> Really? I now have my NIC, SB16 and TV-Card on the same IRQ (5) 
> because
> that's the only way I've found (so far) that Windows accept them
> (impossible to find the NIC otherwise - but I knew it was working). 
> And
> neither is now recognized as the things they are so the drivers 
> don't work (luckily things seems to work anyway).

Your hardware doesn't seem 
to support enough IRQ 
alternatives, can't blame 
that on Windoze.  It have a 
similarly crowded card 
collection -- NIC, modem, 
two active serial ports, 
IRQ/DMA-hungry sound card, 
SCSI controller, Sony 
proprietary CD-ROM interface 
-- with no conflicts at all.
> 
> >> * slows down your computer so much
> >
> >Again we disagree, on my 
> >pre-Pentium hardware Win95 is 
> >no slower overall than Win3.11.  
> 
> Hmm.. Well it's slower on all my computers (486, Pentium, Pentium 
> MMX and
> AMD K6) then DOS. 

Sure, but DOS isn't really 
an operating system, it's a 
sort of extended monitor 
with disk access -- warm-
over CP/M with a few Unix-
like enhancements.  It has 
virtually no overhead 
because (outside of things 
like device drivers and 
memory managers) it's 
pretty much idle until its 
called on to do something.  
Multitaskers like Windoze 
and UNIX are active all the 
time and are much more CPU-
intensive -- of course they 
actually retain control of 
the hardware, whereas 
single-task, non-reentrant 
stuff like DOS pretty much 
steps aside and lets the 
app of the moment take 
control.

> Although Win 3.x multitasking has always worked better
> then Win9x's (I know I'm relativly alone on that) 

Yes, you are.  Win95 has 
been both (a little) less 
prone to crash and (a lot) 
better at crash recovery 
than Win3.11 here.

> I have no idea if Win 3.x
> or Win9x is fastest.

It's Win95 by a nose here, 
especially when comparing 
32-bit vs. 16-bit versions 
of the same app.
> 
> >It does take up more RAM, but I 
> >have a fairly fast SCSI disk 
> >subsystem and disk swapping is 
> >quite fast -- and much less 
> >crash-prone that is is under 
> >Win3.11.
> 
> It's not often I get crashes in 3.x - 9x (or NT for that matter) 
> crashed on
> a daily basis for me (even if I only used them for a few minutes). 

I found Win3.11 crashed at 
least once a day, usually 
more.  Win95 rarely crashes 
more than once a day and 
generally doesn't require a 
reset button cold boot like 
Win3.11 often did.  Faint 
praise for M$, I know.  :-)

> Tip:
> Keep clear of the right mouse button in 9x and NT.

Thanks, I've never noticed 
that one, now I'll be alert 
for it!
> 
> >> * way to big (or "demanding on the hardware")
> >
> >Win95 works OK in 16, 24, or 
> >32 MB.  I can't say the same 
> >for Win98 or NT.
> 
> But I'm not comparing with those OS but with DOS.

That's an apples vs, oranges 
comparison, but I take your 
point.
> 
> Anyway, it's important (IMHO) that we point out the things that are
> incorrect in Windows and not just poor out random errors that are 
> results of incorrect installations etc.

As far as I know, my Windoze 
install is clean and conflict-
free.  It still crashes, but 
perhaps there's an intermittent 
SIMM or cache chip -- it's hard 
to know when you run a 
homebrew system built largely 
from old/spare parts!  :-)

> I think that if one hears one thing in an arguement that is easily 
> proved
> wrong then the entire discussion is believed to be wrong by many 
> people.

You certainly could be right 
there, Bernie.  Thanks for 
writing -- and apologies to all 
for wandering so far off-topic!

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