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Mail Archives: opendos/1999/06/12/06:13:50

From: DH473 AT AOL DOT COM
Message-ID: <a516da6a.24938cbb@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 06:13:15 EDT
Subject: Re: DRDOS 7.03 loading XMS-driver now wastes memory
To: opendos AT delorie DOT com
CC: PAUL-MA AT reze-1 DOT rz DOT rwth-aachen DOT de
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Matthias Paul <PAUL-MA AT reze-1 DOT rz DOT rwth-aachen DOT de> wrote on Wed, 09 Jun 1999:

On Mon, 07 Jun 1999 Utz Zarwell wrote:

>Anyway, running 
>a quick test I too could reproduce the phenomenon on an AMD486DX40 
>(SIS 461 chipset, VESA-Local bus, AMI-BIOS 1993 I5 R1.3, 20 Mb RAM) 
>running DR-DOS 7.03 and temporarily loading MS-DOS 6.22 HIMEM.SYS... 
>So, it appears not to be CPU or chipset specific at all.

Agree. Others on the list say similar. 
I showed this with 2 different systems already.

>IMHO parts of your configuration are rather unusual. 
>Still, a number of comments and questions might help to better 
>clarify your setup in general:

There is no need to do so.  :-)
Most of the testing of the _abnormality_ was done before 
and without ALL suspicious _drivers_ of course. 
The XMS behavior was shown with both systems regardless 
of the customized ( :-) ) configurations.
The following cutting only showed the state _before_ by 
using a stable all days config on the laptop with the UMC chipset.

satisfying your curiosity..
>>ok, at first for DR-OpenDOS 7.02 with PC DOS 7 HIMEM.SYS
>>[...]
>>DEVICE=C:\START\DOA20.EXE /C /D /Q
>>DEVICE=C:\START\UEBDA.SYS /S=4C /F
>
>Are these self-written drivers for A20 control and moving the
>Extended BIOS data area? Selfwritten?

Hhm, .. aahhmm, ... indeed.
But it doesn´t touch our problem.


>>DEVICE=C:\START\HIMEM.SYS /V /FASTA20
>>DEVICE=C:\DOS\DPMS.EXE
>
>Is this the PC DOS DPMS driver? It has an unusual memory footprint of
>1568 bytes quite similar to very old Novell DPMS drivers, which also
>found their way into PC DOS due to Stacker. Use the DR-DOS 7.02+ DPMS
>driver instead, it should have a smaller footprint of only 944 byte 
>on your machine. 

ver 1.44 Caldera (1997). 
I have to say I don´t know exactly the version of DR-DOS 7.02+ DMPS anymore.
Doesn´t matter anyhow for the subject.
But the thing with the different footprint depends on whether DPMS is 
running under EMM386 (DPMI/VCPI) or XMS. 

>Since you can't use VLADIVAR multitasking without 
>EMM386, you could also try to use Helix's/Network Associates' CLOAKING 
>driver instead of DPMS, also provides a "Cloaked DPMS server" (this 
>is undocumented) at a (high loadable) memory footprint of ca. 1 Kb.
>CLOAKING 2.01 (1994) shipped for example with Logitech MouseWare 6.50
>and 6.60, and even current issues of MouseWare 8.2x utilize it to run
>the mouse driver in Protected Mode, thereby reducing the visible 
>mouse driver footprint downto ca. 1 Kb (instead of 27 Kb otherwise). 
>This even outperforms CTMOUSE/DRMOUSE...

Where to get?  :-)
And how save is the use of CLOAKING?


>>DEVICE=C:\START\UKEY.SYS /DATEI=C:\START\LEBOOK.BIN
>Vobis LeBook? Is this a laptop keyboard driver, or a key stuffing 
>tool? It has an invalid device driver name "aeoeueAEOEUE(" (maybe to save 
>some bytes), but on the other hand this should not cause any problems.

Vobis LeBook. (None laptop) keyboard driver. Doesn´t cause probs.
 

>But where does the other block driver come from? 
>24B:0000         E:       B0h,     176    DEVICE = installed device 
>
>I can't find a line loading something like DRIVER.SYS or another RAM 
>disk... Or is this a result of DOA20.EXE?!?

Yeah, the boy has found one big point ! ;-)
But you explained it yourself already some lines before.
And I wonder why you did not hit the tender spot? Haven´t you seen the 
_memory hole_ between 773:0h and 1124:0h ?  :-)) just kidding.
STACKER
But before hitting me - it is only installed on the laptop!
I know it is definitely not a good idea, but there was no chance to avoid it. 
So its not the prob.


>Since your memory configuration is rather modular, it might be 
>interesting to see what happens after removing the bus master driver 
>and XBDA relocator. Even if they worked, they could cause some fuzz...

Nothing else. When testing/installing I avoid them.


>Your dummy driver has proven to be quite useful here. 
>You should try a few more configurations between /SIZE=4000..8000 
>to see how HIMEM.SYS strikes back when DUMMYDRV.SYS reaches 
>700:0000..A00:0000.
>
>Do similar things also happen when HIMEM.SYS is loaded above 
>1000:0000 (e.g. by loading multiple DUMMYDRV.SYS), for example 
>placing HIMEM.SYS start in between 13xx:0000..1Axx:0000?
>Seems like HIMEM.SYS tries to ensure that some part of it is loaded 
>at a fixed offset short before A9A. For what reason I don't know. 

It shrinks to 3168 By until somewhere at 09D0:0, then it keeps that size.
Following cutting from mem/b with various DUMMYDRV sizes.
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B1F0h, 111.088 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   4000h,  16.384 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  658:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦   4410h,  17.424 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9A:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3363:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C5D0h, 443.856 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +1000
XMS   -1000
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B1F0h, 111.088 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   5000h,  20.480 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  758:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦   3410h,  13.328 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9A:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3363:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C5D0h, 443.856 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +1000
XMS   -1000
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B1F0h, 111.088 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   6000h,  24.576 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  858:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦   2410h,   9.232 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9A:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3363:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C5D0h, 443.856 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +1000
XMS   -1000
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B1F0h, 111.088 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   7000h,  28.672 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  958:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦   1410h,   5.136 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9A:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3363:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C5D0h, 443.856 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +400
XMS   -400
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B1F0h, 111.088 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   7400h,  29.696 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  998:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦   1010h,   4.112 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9A:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3363:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C5D0h, 443.856 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +400
XMS   -400 +50
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B240h, 111.168 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   7800h,  30.720 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  9D8:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A9F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3368:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C580h, 443.776 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +200
XMS     00
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B440h, 111.680 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   7A00h,  31.232 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  9F8:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  ABF:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3388:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C380h, 443.264 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +200
XMS     00
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1B640h, 112.192 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   7C00h,  31.744 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A18:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  ADF:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 33A8:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6C180h, 442.752 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +400
XMS     00
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1BA40h, 113.216 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   8000h,  32.768 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A58:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  B1F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 33E8:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6BD80h, 441.728 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +400
XMS     00
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1BE40h, 114.240 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   8400h,  33.792 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  A98:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  B5F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3428:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6B980h, 440.704 ¦ FREE                              
¦

Dummy +400
XMS     00
+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1C240h, 115.264 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   8800h,  34.816 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  AD8:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  B9F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 3468:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  6B580h, 439.680 ¦ FREE                              
¦



+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  1FA40h, 129.600 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   C000h,  49.152 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  E58:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  F1F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 37E8:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  67D80h, 425.344 ¦ FREE                              
¦


+- Address --- Name ----- Size ------------- Type 
----------------------------+
¦  23C:0000 ¦      DOS ¦  21A40h, 137.792 ¦ System                            
¦
¦  24B:0000 ¦       E: ¦     B0h,     176 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦  257:0000 ¦ DUMDRV & ¦   E000h,  57.344 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 1058:0000 ¦ XMSXXXX0 ¦    C60h,   3.168 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 111F:0000 ¦ äöüÄÖÜ(' ¦    190h,     400 ¦  DEVICE = installed device driver 
¦
¦ 39E8:0000 ¦ -------- ¦  65D80h, 417.152 ¦ FREE                              
¦




>On my system a DEBUG dump showed that the memory block occupied by 
>HIMEM.SYS still contains most parts of the installer, although there 
>are some large areas of 00h and FFh. Same with yours? Could it be, 
>that for some reason HIMEM.SYS has problems to run within Low Memory 
>(first 64 Kb) due to some obscure A20 or DMA problem??? Although 
>this does not appear to be hardware specific, any changes after 
>fiddling with CMOS SETUP settings for A20 or chipset setup?

Not worth testing it, because at least 4 different machines showed that 
behavior.
Same over 64K.


>Does the following reveal anything on your machine:
> INSTALL=c:\drdos\mem.exe /AP
> DEVICE=c:\pcdos\himem.sys
> INSTALL=c:\drdos\mem.exe /AP

No.


>Unfortunately I don't have the time to track this down myself, but 
>if this problem does occur with DR-DOS 7.03 (01/1999) and did not 
>occur with DR-OpenDOS 7.02 (12/1997), what about DR-DOS 7.02 (02/1998) 
>and all of its various updates over 1998? After isolating the latest 
>working kernel for this setup, we should step by step replace 
>IBMDOS.COM by newer ones until the problem occurs or we use the 
>7.03 BDOS. Then same with IBMBIO.COM. 
>With this info, I might be able to isolate the kernel patch that 
>apparently causes this behaviour and look for a fix.

That is definitely a good idea to get when it was introduced.
But unfortunately I don´t have all those versions.

>>Chipset made by UMC: UM8891N (Notebook), UM8886N EIDE/ISA bridge
>>If anyone out there could provide me any good info/datasheet/pointer
>>about that particular chipset (programming) really I would be happy
>>to spent that time... ;-)
>That's an offer!!! OK people, let's search for some data sheets
>(I couldn't find any of the UMC chips in INTER60, but what's the
>Intel Batman chipset's code number again?)... Anyone checked
>UMC's server already?

Intel Batman is a Mercury chipset rev 3. That one I can handle.
UMC info is much harder to obtain.
The offer remains under the condition that I get the relevant info about the 
chipset
and that it is possible.

 Regards,
Utz
<dh473 AT aol DOT com>

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