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Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/02/28/17:51:01

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Subject: Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <CAC4O8c_kg9ort-Pvek8k5Gdh0XRDasic0W7K4YwLD+dxJmg5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 15:50:30 -0700
Message-Id: <2DE900EA-9406-40F8-A225-24BD09B3C20A@noqsi.com>
References: <20160215215221 DOT fd472794e7b9446a243bfc40 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152055 DOT u1FKtM4K011038 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160215220938 DOT bbc7eaa59d827cd0b261ea97 AT gmail DOT com> <D3167F4D-4750-49F8-9125-BDC4937F5C69 AT noqsi DOT com> <201602152135 DOT u1FLZrw9012774 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <7F210DE7-0A0B-42F9-ABBE-2C2768621186 AT noqsi DOT com> <20160216081722 DOT 1065cbed6653d3da4ffc7498 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160724 DOT u1G7Ox26001785 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216085628 DOT b70143c330cd4da98a4603d3 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160805 DOT u1G85d8c003148 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216092912 DOT 7f7439f703b49175a21dbb1b AT gmail DOT com> <CAJXU7q_w5NunkojiCr36RHRTq0hJ+PZP1e0GumTRMoGXcvgRXQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <201602161715 DOT u1GHFMBB028078 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <CAC4O8c9jr_b376SpuUk5HrJApP1c75oxsEBemn-i_xtC-rt-Zw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <201602162032 DOT u1GKWL7Y005291 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <CAC4O8c-ig=0UVAqagNXH_DBmC9uVQDu3Y1Gx7LBGmRCo0-_kVQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <E75ECBB6-14E7-437A-B374-E0CF86BDFF1A AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c8z4JiJr=mgA+co4pX-yxu_pVsXpeKRYqneuxZNnYqh8g AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <59CE9019-7A!
56-49D6-BC2B-680A7253B055 AT noqsi DOT com> <nauuv2$m6r$1 AT ger DOT gmane DOT org> <E56E5601-2E20-4A6E-B44C-C4F04808B97F AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c-ry2HnxmOHB2hARpcOMfuN4bb8rHmzZAD-z40pvOoVPA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <1771F6F4-1235-4D24-9015-2C9A04EB2117 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c_kg9ort-Pvek8k5Gdh0XRDasic0W7K4YwLD+dxJmg5CQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
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On Feb 28, 2016, at 3:22 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak <kmk AT familieknaak DOT de> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> John Doty wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Gschem has no such problem.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware
>>>>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware =
projects.
>>>>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples.
>>>>=20
>>>> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn=92t mean that =
LaTeX isn=92t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it =
should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. =
Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both =
approaches).
>>>>=20
>>>> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed =
with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever =
put into space.
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is =
working
>>>>> alright, when it clearly isn=92t.
>>>>=20
>>>> Clearly not. But there=92s a profound difference between what pcb =
users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is =
far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, =
geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it =
at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don=92t =
want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, =
and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* =
application).
>>>=20
>>> pcb has an action system.  It has batch mode.  It has a plugin =
system.  It has
>>> a text file format.  It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more =
than gschem.
>>> A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not =
less so.
>>=20
>> But it doesn=92t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. =
Pcb simply can=92t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of =
intentions reflecting use cases. It=92s not a =93stack of materials=94 =
editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset.
>=20
> If you mean it can only make pcbs you're correct, but since that's all =
it's
> supposed to do that's hardly surprising.  The abstractions it uses are
> quite suitable for the purpose.

No they are not. Suitable abstractions would allow the user to draw a =
buried via, for example.

>  If it was a "stack of materials" editor
> it wouldn't work to make pcbs, since stacking up a bunch of materials =
won't
> result in a pcb.

But PCBs commonly contain structures that pcb cannot represent, so pcb=92s=
 model is deficient.

>=20
> I think what frustrates me most about your attitude towards pcb is =
that you're
> determined to regard its problems (and I freely admit that there are =
some)
> as fundamental design defects.  You're mostly wrong in this, have no =
basis
> for the claim, and should stop making it.
>=20
>> Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible =
abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the =
topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There =
are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, =
pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future.
>>=20
>>>> It=92s also true that much of geda-gaf=92s intelligence is actually =
in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a =
particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, =
this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application =
space isn=92t a coherent, monolithic thing.
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It has been stable and productive for
>>>>>> well over a decade.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades.
>>>>=20
>>>> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is =
problems with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people =
expect geda-gaf to work
>>>=20
>>> That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder.
>>=20
>> Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach =
of implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem =
harder?
>=20
> It's intrinsically harder.  I'm going to assume you accept that.

I do not. I accept that you can make it harder by having an inadequate =
foundation.

> If you
> knew how it worked at all you wouldn't claim that it implements a =
function
> for every use case.  It absolutely does not.  If you actually want an =
idea
> how it works take a look in src/gpcb_menu.res.in, and you'll see that =
all
> the operations defined in the menus are implemented in terms of =
sequences
> of fundamental actions.

You have a different notion of fundamental than I have. What you call =
fundamental, I call ad hoc. And the proof that I=92m right is that your =
so-called =93fundamental=94 operations do not actually capture the =
construction of a PCB in general.

>=20
>>>>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non-
>>>>> ambiguous.
>>>>=20
>>>> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample.
>>>=20
>>> The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum
>>=20
>> Indeed. That=92s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. =
What=92s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn=92t use pcb? People =
like Paul Tan don=92t seem to post anymore.
>=20
> You're changing the subject from the user composition question and =
relevance
> of Kai's poll.  I'll take it you concede the point.

Of course not. You=92re not being scientific. It is certain that the =
population here is not representative of the whole community, and there =
are strong reasons to believe that geda users who don=92t use pcb are =
underrepresented. You=92ve worked hard to make us unwelcome.

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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