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Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/02/28/15:51:16

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Subject: Re: [geda-user] pcb import schematic crash, parantheses in netname
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <CAC4O8c-ry2HnxmOHB2hARpcOMfuN4bb8rHmzZAD-z40pvOoVPA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 13:50:46 -0700
Message-Id: <1771F6F4-1235-4D24-9015-2C9A04EB2117@noqsi.com>
References: <20160215215221 DOT fd472794e7b9446a243bfc40 AT gmail DOT com> <201602152055 DOT u1FKtM4K011038 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160215220938 DOT bbc7eaa59d827cd0b261ea97 AT gmail DOT com> <D3167F4D-4750-49F8-9125-BDC4937F5C69 AT noqsi DOT com> <201602152135 DOT u1FLZrw9012774 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <7F210DE7-0A0B-42F9-ABBE-2C2768621186 AT noqsi DOT com> <20160216081722 DOT 1065cbed6653d3da4ffc7498 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160724 DOT u1G7Ox26001785 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216085628 DOT b70143c330cd4da98a4603d3 AT gmail DOT com> <201602160805 DOT u1G85d8c003148 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <20160216092912 DOT 7f7439f703b49175a21dbb1b AT gmail DOT com> <CAJXU7q_w5NunkojiCr36RHRTq0hJ+PZP1e0GumTRMoGXcvgRXQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <201602161715 DOT u1GHFMBB028078 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <CAC4O8c9jr_b376SpuUk5HrJApP1c75oxsEBemn-i_xtC-rt-Zw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <201602162032 DOT u1GKWL7Y005291 AT envy DOT delorie DOT com> <CAC4O8c-ig=0UVAqagNXH_DBmC9uVQDu3Y1Gx7LBGmRCo0-_kVQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <E75ECBB6-14E7-437A-B374-E0CF86BDFF1A AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c8z4JiJr=mgA+co4pX-yxu_pVsXpeKRYqneuxZNnYqh8g AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <CAC4O8c8ejS!
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On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak <kmk AT familieknaak DOT de> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> John Doty wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term,
>>>>=20
>>>> Gschem has no such problem.
>>>=20
>>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware
>>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware =
projects.
>>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples.
>>=20
>> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn=92t mean that =
LaTeX isn=92t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it =
should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. =
Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both =
approaches).
>>=20
>> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed =
with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever =
put into space.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is =
working
>>> alright, when it clearly isn=92t.
>>=20
>> Clearly not. But there=92s a profound difference between what pcb =
users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is =
far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, =
geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it =
at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don=92t =
want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, =
and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* =
application).
>=20
> pcb has an action system.  It has batch mode.  It has a plugin system. =
 It has
> a text file format.  It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more =
than gschem.
> A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not less =
so.

But it doesn=92t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. Pcb =
simply can=92t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of =
intentions reflecting use cases. It=92s not a =93stack of materials=94 =
editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset.

Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible =
abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the =
topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There =
are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, =
pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future.

>> It=92s also true that much of geda-gaf=92s intelligence is actually =
in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a =
particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, =
this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application =
space isn=92t a coherent, monolithic thing.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It has been stable and productive for
>>>> well over a decade.
>>>=20
>>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades.
>>=20
>> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is problems =
with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people expect =
geda-gaf to work
>=20
> That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder.

Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach of =
implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem =
harder?

>=20
>>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non-
>>> ambiguous.
>>=20
>> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample.
>=20
> The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum

Indeed. That=92s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. =
What=92s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn=92t use pcb? People =
like Paul Tan don=92t seem to post anymore.

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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