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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 14:24:40 -0900
Message-ID: <CAC4O8c8cVr1H3skmbGo4Rhf5ZTZj8bDxJw8a9C4qfHeGyXZ4XA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] A fileformat library
From: "Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:21 AM, <karl AT aspodata DOT se> wrote:

> Britton Kerin:
> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 6:25 PM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
> ...
> > > Although these are good measures, once you adopt them you may start
> asking
> > > yourself why you aren't just using a binary format.  The argument for
> text
> > > is that you can glance at a chunk of it and easily tell what's going
> on.
> > > A stronger argument for text is that you can process it with
> text-oriented
> > > tools.
> > But ultimately the reason for wanting to use those text-oriented tools is
> > the same: you can see what you're working on with your own eyes.  In
> every
> > other respect binary is better.
>
> I counter that.
> . you have to check a binary file for valid values just as you do for a
>   text file
> . if your binary file is in some way invalid, you will have a greater
>   problem correcting it than a text file
> . discussing why a file is invalid is easier with a text file
> . a binary file might be smaller, but that does not matter much
> . text files are better provided for by version systems (e.g. git)
> . it is easier to write tools that write text than binary, because
>   debugging the output is easier
>

Regarding vcs of text data files for GUI program, it's a stretch to claim
that the fact that they're text makes them much more compatible.  The diffs
are only useful for the most trivial of cases.  For it to be really useful
you need a (non-text) diff viewer of  some sort.

All the rest of the above still boil down to examples of things that are
easier because you can see the data, and therefore manipulate and validate
it more easily.


> Also, there is no reason to change a file format unless you change the
> functionality it provides, I have to "side heavily" with John on this.
> If you want to change the file format, you first have to provide some
> goodies that will make people to accept it. And no such "goodie"
> thing has appeared.
>

A little while back a PhD Stefan Salewski put together a very good start on
a very nice router.  IIRC he said 300-400 hours of effort, probably about
$100k worth with overhead in the american market.  It's not C (for good
reasons) and currently can't talk to pcb at all.  I would like to somehow
arrange things such than efforts like this could maybe get used.


> You might write a library that reads and writes the files and if people
> find it useful, they will start using it, else, it will be just your own
> project.
>

True.  It might be useless but should at least be non-destructive.

Britton

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:21 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:karl AT aspodata DOT se" target=3D"_blank">karl AT aspodata DOT se</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Britton Kerin:<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 6:25 PM, John Doty &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span>...<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; &gt; Although these are good measures, once you adopt=
 them you may start asking<br>
&gt; &gt; yourself why you aren&#39;t just using a binary format.=C2=A0 The=
 argument for text<br>
&gt; &gt; is that you can glance at a chunk of it and easily tell what&#39;=
s going on.<br>
&gt; &gt; A stronger argument for text is that you can process it with text=
-oriented<br>
&gt; &gt; tools.<br>
&gt; But ultimately the reason for wanting to use those text-oriented tools=
 is<br>
&gt; the same: you can see what you&#39;re working on with your own eyes.=
=C2=A0 In every<br>
&gt; other respect binary is better.<br>
<br>
</span>I counter that.<br>
. you have to check a binary file for valid values just as you do for a<br>
=C2=A0 text file<br>
. if your binary file is in some way invalid, you will have a greater<br>
=C2=A0 problem correcting it than a text file<br>
. discussing why a file is invalid is easier with a text file<br>
. a binary file might be smaller, but that does not matter much<br>
. text files are better provided for by version systems (e.g. git)<br>
. it is easier to write tools that write text than binary, because<br>
=C2=A0 debugging the output is easier<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"">Regarding vcs of text data files for GUI program, it&#39;s a stre=
tch to claim that the fact that they&#39;re text makes them much more compa=
tible.=C2=A0 The diffs are only useful for the most trivial of cases.=C2=A0=
 For it to be really useful you need a (non-text) diff viewer of =C2=A0some=
 sort.</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">All the rest of the a=
bove still boil down to examples of things that are easier because you can =
see the data, and therefore manipulate and validate it more easily.</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Also, there is no reason to change a file format unless you change the<br>
functionality it provides, I have to &quot;side heavily&quot; with John on =
this.<br>
If you want to change the file format, you first have to provide some<br>
goodies that will make people to accept it. And no such &quot;goodie&quot;<=
br>
thing has appeared.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">A little=
 while back a PhD Stefan Salewski put together a very good start on a very =
nice router.=C2=A0 IIRC he said 300-400 hours of effort, probably about $10=
0k worth with overhead in the american market.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not C (for go=
od reasons) and currently can&#39;t talk to pcb at all.=C2=A0 I would like =
to somehow arrange things such than efforts like this could maybe get used.=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
You might write a library that reads and writes the files and if people<br>
find it useful, they will start using it, else, it will be just your own<br=
>
project.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">True.=C2=A0 It migh=
t be useless but should at least be non-destructive.</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<div style=3D"">Britton</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

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