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	Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:04:37 -0800 (PST)
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Date:	Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:04:37 -0500
Message-ID:	<CAM2RGhRf1tkKOMHh3a-2e4QHos0+rS6YSAPcLJOFp4Fh4S2f4w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject:	Re: [geda-user] Project leadership
From:	"Evan Foss (evanfoss AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To:	gEDA users mailing list <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:29 AM,  <gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, John Doty wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 28, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Marvin Dickens (mpdickens AT gmail DOT com) [via
>> geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>>

<snip>

>> with scripting. Pcb development requires a great deal of collaboration.
>> Geda-gaf development mostly does not, as anybody can write and publish a
>> script.

No changes more involved than a script just trigger a massive backlash.

> False. I am coding/maintaining pcb-rnd alone and it does work - in the sense
> that I do get the features and bugfixes I wanted to have. When I did the
> back annotation's gschem part, things went much slower. If i had to pick,
> I'd say pcb is easier to hack alone than gschem.

+1

<snip>

>> There would be much less controversy if these projects were separated.
>> They
>> represent radically different development patterns: conflating them causes
>> much confusion and strife.
>
>
> As an user of _both_ gschem and pcb, as a programmer who has alreay hacked
> both code, I beg to differ. The projects are separate enough.

PCB needs better integration into the toolchain. Your work on back
annotation was a good proof what that could be if people accepted it.

Likewise PCB needs it's own equivalent to gnetlist. John Doty and
others did a good job making gnetlist export a lot of formats but PCB
only accepts one. I had another engineer from another lab try to send
me a schematic + netlist. He wanted me to do a PCB layout while he was
out. As it was not done in gEDA that was kind of a pain to work out.

gEDA has libgeda and a lot of other tools grow around that. To me PCB
needs a core library that other tools can grow off of to allow for
more integration.

> Admitting that a very common (if not the most common) flow is gschem->pcb is
> not a bad thing. Even if you will write at least 20 mails a month about that
> your flow does not include PCB.
>
> Having some scripts and tools for this flow is not any worse than having
> tools an scripts for other flows.

+10^2

> Having a common mailing list or homepage or other infrastructure is not
> harmful either. Anyone can use gschem without pcb and can use pcb without
> gschem. It's only you who try to change PCB-related traffic into "don't
> change gschem" threads. Other than this it's usually pretty clear when we
> are talking about gschem or pcb.
>
> About how perfect gschem is...
>
> My personal opinion, especially after actually hacking the code for back
> annotation, is that there are design errors in the very core of gschem. A
> few smallish things that makes life harder in probably most flows, makes
> essential UI features impossible to implement. They are historical decisions
> and are embedded so deep that it's unlikely they'd ever change.
> I don't want to go into details, because this mail already can cause 30
> megabytes of flamewar.

+10^6

> The well-praised sch format: it's uncomfortable to use with a text editor.
> It's 1000x better than a binary format (or a hex dump), and I do have my ow
> set of awk/sed scripts, and it's easy to parse by programs (but that's true
> for tons of other formats too). But if i have to change the footprint of R1
> from 1206 to 0805 with a text editor, it's just a PITA.  I'm not an xml
> fanboy and I really don't like the overhead of JSON or the magic -- == '''
> marks of wiki/yaml... But really, any of these would have been more
> text-editor-friendly. This is a question of personal preference, but just
> that you repeat twice a weak that the sch format is perfect and is better
> than anything else doesn't change this.

I don't mind the sch format that much. The PCB format cause me to go
in with a text editor more often than I want to admit. Having a set of
tools instead of a single monolithic one is good. Having a better user
experience where those tools integrate into a more cohesive workflow
is better. Doing both of those things while having transparent
interfaces between tools and well documented formats was what I
thought we were here to do!

I am tired.

-- 
Home
http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/
Work
http://forge.abcd.harvard.edu/gf/project/epl_engineering/wiki/

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