Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/10/24/00:34:57
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On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 5:52 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com)
> [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:41 PM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 5:40 PM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >>> My sample schematic would have U1-1 and U1-1.
>> >>
>> >> So you don't really have a refdes to start from: it doesn't identify
>> >> the component.
>> >
>> > Wordplay. It has a refdes. It's not unique. We do this all the time
>> > for slotted and multi-sym parts.
>> >
>> > And that reference was to show how easy it is for a user to
>> > instantiate symbols that don't have a unique identity, a problem you
>> > still haven't addressed.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s easy to do all kinds of dysfunctional things with a power t=
ool. To
>> reliably prevent dysfunction, you have to take away the power.
>>
>
> You sound like a surgeon resisting a checklist.
>
>
> Not at all. I=E2=80=99m one of the minority who use gnet-drc2 despite its=
flaws.
>
> "Sure I sometimes take out the wrong kidney, BFD I'm smart I don't need
> that". Power tools shouldn't gratuitously force you to remember things a
> competent tool can easily remember for you.
>
> And the toolkit should have a way to *advise* you. Not *force* you to
> conform, as DJ wants.
>
IIRC at the moment it give NO WARNING for duplicate refdes, which is just
inexcusable. To be fair you can blame this on pcb but still...
> Do you know how to tell a valid Switcap schematic from an invalid one?
> Neither do I. Who=E2=80=99s to say?
>
I'm perfectly happy with unique refdes as an invariant, exactly as users
are going to expect. People who want something unexpected should have to
do the configuring. It's a matter of cognitive load and avoiding forcing
pointless complexity on people, which you often like to caution against.
> If refdes aren't gonna be unique then some other thing should exist
> that makes obviously distinct symbols unique.
>
>
> Yes. And since gschem doesn=E2=80=99t have complete knowledge of the envi=
ronment
> in which the schematic page will be used, it can=E2=80=99t be the enforce=
r.
>
Schematic pages except for subcircs are obsolete IMO, I don't use them I
just spread things out. If you need to print your schematics it's because
your CAD sucks somehow.
Even if you want pages there's the general principle that bugs should be
caught as early as possible to make them cheap as possible to fix, and that
means in gschem. Inter-page stuff can be caught later. Like how compilers
do things.
I don't remember what ugly thing gEDA did to me with duplicate refdes but
> I remember it being bad enough I immediately added machinery to my setup =
so
> it couldn't happen again.
>
> You can detect these with gnet-drc2, although it=E2=80=99ll complain abou=
t a lot
> of things it shouldn=E2=80=99t. That=E2=80=99s a fine illustration of the=
problem of
> developers making assumptions about how users will use the tool. Gnet-drc=
2
> makes many unreasonable assumptions. The good news is that gnet-drc2 is
> only an advisor, so you can ignore it when it=E2=80=99s wrong. It would b=
e
> catastrophic if we forced this stuff on people.
>
I don't vote for force. I vote for sane defaults that match user
expectations.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 5:52 AM, John Doty <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com" target=3D"_blank">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a>></span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"=
><br><div><span class=3D""><div>On Oct 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Britton Kerin=
(<a href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com" target=3D"_blank">britton.keri=
n AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_b=
lank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT co=
m" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:41 PM, John Doty <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com" target=3D"_blank">jpd AT noqsi DOT c=
om</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><br>
On Oct 19, 2015, at 5:40 PM, DJ Delorie <<a href=3D"mailto:dj AT delorie DOT co=
m" target=3D"_blank">dj AT delorie DOT com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
>>> My sample schematic would have U1-1 and U1-1.<br>
>><br>
>> So you don't really have a refdes to start from: it doesn'=
t identify<br>
>> the component.<br>
><br>
> Wordplay.=C2=A0 It has a refdes.=C2=A0 It's not unique.=C2=A0 We d=
o this all the time<br>
> for slotted and multi-sym parts.<br>
><br>
> And that reference was to show how easy it is for a user to<br>
> instantiate symbols that don't have a unique identity, a problem y=
ou<br>
> still haven't addressed.<br>
<br>
</span>It=E2=80=99s easy to do all kinds of dysfunctional things with a pow=
er tool. To reliably prevent dysfunction, you have to take away the power.<=
br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You sound like a surgeon resisting a ch=
ecklist. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>Not at =
all. I=E2=80=99m one of the minority who use gnet-drc2 despite its flaws.</=
div><div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0"Sure I=
sometimes take out the wrong kidney, BFD I'm smart I don't need th=
at".=C2=A0 Power tools shouldn't gratuitously force you to remembe=
r things a competent tool can easily remember for you.</div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></span>And the toolkit should have a way to *advise* you. N=
ot *force* you to conform, as DJ wants.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div style=3D"">IIRC at the moment it give NO WARNING for duplicate ref=
des, which is just inexcusable.=C2=A0 To be fair you can blame this on pcb =
but still...</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Do you know how to tell a valid Switcap sc=
hematic from an invalid one? Neither do I. Who=E2=80=99s to say?</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I'm perfectly happy with u=
nique refdes as an invariant, exactly as users are going to expect.=C2=A0 P=
eople who want something unexpected should have to do the configuring.=C2=
=A0 It's a matter of cognitive load and avoiding forcing pointless comp=
lexity on people, which you often like to caution against.</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0 If refdes aren'=
t gonna be unique then some other thing should exist =C2=A0that makes obvio=
usly distinct symbols unique.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></span>Yes. And since gschem doesn=E2=80=99t have complete knowledge =
of the environment in which the schematic page will be used, it can=E2=80=
=99t be the enforcer.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"=
">Schematic pages except for subcircs are obsolete IMO, I don't use the=
m I just spread things out.=C2=A0 If you need to print your schematics it&#=
39;s because your CAD sucks somehow.</div><div><br></div><div style=3D"">Ev=
en if you want pages there's the general principle that bugs should be =
caught as early as possible to make them cheap as possible to fix, and that=
means in gschem.=C2=A0 Inter-page stuff can be caught later.=C2=A0 Like ho=
w compilers do things.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div>=C2=A0 I don't remember what ugly thing gEDA did to me with =
duplicate refdes but I remember it being bad enough I immediately added mac=
hinery to my setup so it couldn't happen again.</div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></span>You can detect these with gnet-drc2, although it=E2=80=
=99ll complain about a lot of things it shouldn=E2=80=99t. That=E2=80=99s a=
fine illustration of the problem of developers making assumptions about ho=
w users will use the tool. Gnet-drc2 makes many unreasonable assumptions. T=
he good news is that gnet-drc2 is only an advisor, so you can ignore it whe=
n it=E2=80=99s wrong. It would be catastrophic if we forced this stuff on p=
eople.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I don't v=
ote for force.=C2=A0 I vote for sane defaults that match user expectations.=
</div></div><br></div></div>
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