Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/10/13/15:41:45
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On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:07 PM, Bert Timmerman (bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl)
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Bert Timmerman (bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl
>> <mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl>) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com <mailto:
>> geda-user AT delorie DOT com>] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com <mailto:
>> geda-user AT delorie DOT com>> wrote:
>>
>> Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com
>> <mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com>) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com
>> <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:48 AM, John Griessen
>> <john AT ecosensory DOT com <mailto:john AT ecosensory DOT com>
>> <mailto:john AT ecosensory DOT com <mailto:john AT ecosensory DOT com>>> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/11/2015 02:39 AM, Bert Timmerman
>> (bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl <mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl>
>> <mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl
>> <mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl>>) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com
>> <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
>> <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com <mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com>>]
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I just checked: I see no new applications in Launchpad.
>>
>> AFAICT, no bug team rejections either, just a total of
>> three
>> members who left (AndyM, PeterB and Traumflug).
>>
>>
>> Any member of gEDAhead would want to have 1) as well.
>>
>>
>> I don't see the additional value of gEDAhead.
>>
>>
>> So, the low barrier of using gedahead also creates an
>> extra site
>> and login for the full admins to do
>> as a chore. And the rigor of gedahead users seems lower
>> with no
>> bug team applications, so gedahead tracker might
>> just create more sifting to do, maybe even attract spam.
>>
>> I've seen a lot of inertia in this project, (and other FOSS
>> projects), and it seems natural to me,
>> yet Markus seems impatient with it.
>> His manners towards me are lacking. I'm not worried that
>> he seems
>> to have dropped gedahead.
>>
>>
>> Given that he as doing really quite nice work as integrator,
>> plus submitting lots of patches himself, I'm somewhat
>> worried. I wish the stupid feud could end and Markus was most
>> active at the moment at least so driving him off seems like a
>> poor solution.
>>
>> Hi Britton,
>>
>> I do not fully agree with your last statement.
>>
>> I wish this stupid "feud" as you call it, could stop too.
>>
>> Calling it a "feud" gives it more credit than it deserves, IMHO
>> it's single sided and "targeted" people just defend themselves.
>>
>> Everyone who has earned a place *somewhere* should be left in
>> peace in that place, pushing and shoving of volunteers in FOSS is
>> *not* acceptable.
>>
>> The way I see it is that Markus drove himself off being too impatient.
>>
>>
>> He referred to lots of emails, and the other parties have never denied
>> them. My understanding is he didn't get given some stupid blessing or
>> sanctification or other and got angry. I don't know or care what it was
>> exactly, but it was almost certainly a bad mistake not to just give it to
>> him.
>> What damage would it have done beyond what happened anyway?
>>
>> It's not as if gEDA has piles of eager volunteers. His claim to have
>> been doing more than most seems accurate based on the repository. So what
>> was the problem?
>>
>> Britton
>>
> Hi Britton,
>
> Running the long liner below
>
> git log --format='%aN' | sort -u | while read name; do echo -en "$name\t";
> git log --author="$name" --pretty=tformat: --numstat | awk '{ add += $1;
> subs += $2; loc += $1 - $2 } END { printf "added lines: %s, removed lines:
> %s, total lines: %s\n", add, subs, loc }' -; done
>
> |
> sums it up nicely ;-) although
>
> git shortlog -s -n
>
I'm not sure what you mean for these to demonstrate honestly (I mean maybe
I'm missing it, not saying it's irrelevant). Looks like Markus has quite a
lot of work there. What those commands don't capture so far as I can see
is the recentness of his work.
> would have done too.
>
> For me this is not about the quality or quantity of commits, lines added
> or removed.
> |
> For me things revolve around stability, reliability.
>
>
> Please do not misunderstand this for keeping a status quo, or a
> code/feature freeze or regulating progress.
>
> It's just that I'm not comfortable with the "revolution" model, where the
> "evolution" model could give less turmoil and more stability for the future.
>
> It's the references to "the other parties" and similar addressing that is
> bothering me, there was never a truly "us" in the conversations stated from
> Markus his part, at least that's how I received it.
>
> I don't know exactly "who" denied "what" to "whom", and if it was a
> "confirmed denial" or "not reacting" to a "driven" statement.
>
> This one of those subjects where *everything* needs to be discussed in the
> open, otherwise discussion over hidden agendas will flare up in the future.
>
> And we all should know what it *exactly* was, as to prevent this from
> happening ever again.
>
This would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.
> And sadly, not everything is open for discussion in public, the Personal
> Identfication Number of my bank account for one, or the geda-project.org
> root password, or ...
>
True of course, but kind of extreme examples.
> I think you can come up with a scenario or two when vulnerable data gets
> out in the open.
>
> Give you a clue: one single gEDA administrator named ... <name of the
> first person who grabs it> and all others administrators expelled.
>
DJ keeps backups. If someone did something really destructive it would be
obvious to all and he could just restore and we all start from there minus
that person. It's the idea that slowing people down on their way into the
project can somehow prevent it taking wrong steps that I think is so
misguided. Having looked inside pcb a good bit lately, I feel fairly safe
saying that nobody is going to be taking it on any big detours in a hurry
anyway. Markus in particular was all about the bug fixes.
> Now for the damage that has been done as I see it:
>
> 1) At least two driven and known developers lost for gEDA, maybe one of
> them turns around in a couple of years, or starts a fork to suit his
> ambitions.
>
> 2) A number of potential developers lost, probably scared off by this
> "feud", to be unknown to us for ever.
>
> 3) More care and energy needed in the future to embed new developers, we
> do not want to walk this line again.
>
Well, I think the policy should be to give people the permissions they ask
for *FAST*, if they have put in some contributions and asked for them.
Debian has had this issue for years, they have this big elaborate process
for new maintainers, they have some of the best old maintainers saying
"wow, if it was like this when I started I'd never have bothered" and they
still can't let go of the fun of dragging people through their process
before letting them participate fully. Hubris. gEDA is not nearly as bad,
but it's not nearly as big a project either. I fail to see the point of
annoying contributors with barriers that aren't going to make them more
competent, or align their interests more closely with anyone else's, or
actually even weed anyone out at all. You're just selecting for people who
will put up with the hassle, and that characteristic is probably not well
correlated with the ones you want. If you actually do (effectively, one
way or another) reject people, they may fork. So what do you actually get
by being restrictive or demanding hoop-jumping?
Britton
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:07 PM, Bert Timmerman (<a href=3D"mailto:ber=
t DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto=
:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie.=
com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"=
">Britton Kerin (<a href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com" target=3D"_blan=
k">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT co=
m" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Bert Timmerman (<a href=3D"mailto:bert.tim=
merman AT xs4all DOT nl" target=3D"_blank">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a> <mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl" target=3D"_blank">bert.timmerm=
an AT xs4all DOT nl</a>>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=
=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:geda-use=
r AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>] <<a href=
=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</=
a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">ge=
da-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Britton Kerin (<a href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com" target=
=3D"_blank">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-us=
er AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a><span class=3D""=
><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D=
"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>] wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:48 AM, John Griessen<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <<a href=3D"mailto:john AT ecosensory DOT com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">john AT ecosensory DOT com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:john AT eco=
sensory.com" target=3D"_blank">john AT ecosensory DOT com</a>><br></span><span =
class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:john AT ecosensory DOT co=
m" target=3D"_blank">john AT ecosensory DOT com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:j=
ohn AT ecosensory DOT com" target=3D"_blank">john AT ecosensory DOT com</a>>>> w=
rote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 10/11/2015 02:39 AM, Bert Timm=
erman<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (<a href=3D"mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:b=
ert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl" target=3D"_blank">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a>>=
<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4=
all.nl" target=3D"_blank">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a><span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bert DOT timmerman AT xs4=
all.nl" target=3D"_blank">bert DOT timmerman AT xs4all DOT nl</a>>>) [via <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com<=
/a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie.=
com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>><br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie.=
com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>&g=
t;]<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I just checked: I s=
ee no new applications in Launchpad.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 AFAICT, no bug team=
rejections either, just a total of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 three<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 members who left (A=
ndyM, PeterB and Traumflug).<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Any member of gEDAh=
ead would want to have 1) as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't see the=
additional value of gEDAhead.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So, the low barrier of using geda=
head also creates an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 extra site<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and login for the full admins to =
do<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 as a chore.=C2=A0 And the rigor o=
f gedahead users seems lower<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with no<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bug team applications, so gedahea=
d tracker might<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 just create more sifting to do, m=
aybe even attract spam.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I've seen a lot of inertia in=
this project, (and other FOSS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 projects), and it seems natural t=
o me,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 yet Markus seems impatient with i=
t.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 His manners towards me are lackin=
g.=C2=A0 I'm not worried that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 he seems<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to have dropped gedahead.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Given that he as doing really quite nice work a=
s integrator,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 plus submitting lots of patches himself, I'=
m somewhat<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 worried.=C2=A0 I wish the stupid feud could end=
and Markus was most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 active at the moment at least so driving him of=
f seems like a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 poor solution.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Britton,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I do not fully agree with your last statement.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I wish this stupid "feud" as you call it, could sto=
p too.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Calling it a "feud" gives it more credit than it de=
serves, IMHO<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 it's single sided and "targeted" people just de=
fend themselves.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Everyone who has earned a place *somewhere* should be left in=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 peace in that place, pushing and shoving of volunteers in FOS=
S is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *not* acceptable.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The way I see it is that Markus drove himself off being too i=
mpatient.<br>
<br>
<br>
He referred to lots of emails, and the other parties have never denied them=
.=C2=A0 My understanding is he didn't get given some stupid blessing or=
sanctification or other and got angry.=C2=A0 I don't know or care what=
it was exactly, but it was almost certainly a bad mistake not to just give=
it to him.<br>
What damage would it have done beyond what happened anyway?<br>
<br>
It's not as if gEDA has piles of eager volunteers.=C2=A0 His claim to h=
ave been doing more than most seems accurate based on the repository.=C2=A0=
So what was the problem?<br>
<br>
Britton<br>
</div></div></blockquote>
Hi Britton,<br>
<br>
Running the long liner below<br>
<br>
git log --format=3D'%aN' | sort -u | while read name; do echo -en &=
quot;$name\t"; git log --author=3D"$name" --pretty=3Dtformat=
: --numstat | awk '{ add +=3D $1; subs +=3D $2; loc +=3D $1 - $2 } END =
{ printf "added lines: %s, removed lines: %s, total lines: %s\n",=
add, subs, loc }' -; done<br>
<br>
|<br>
sums it up nicely ;-) although<br>
<br>
git shortlog -s -n<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">I'm n=
ot sure what you mean for these to demonstrate honestly (I mean maybe I'=
;m missing it, not saying it's irrelevant).=C2=A0 Looks like Markus has=
quite a lot of work there.=C2=A0 What those commands don't capture so =
far as I can see is the recentness of his work.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">
would have done too.<br>
<br>
For me this is not about the quality or quantity of commits, lines added or=
removed.<br>
|<br>
For me things revolve around stability, reliability.<br>
<br>
<br>
Please do not misunderstand this for keeping a status quo, or a code/featur=
e freeze or regulating progress.<br>
<br>
It's just that I'm not comfortable with the "revolution" =
model, where the "evolution" model could give less turmoil and mo=
re stability for the future.<br>
<br>
It's the references to "the other parties" and similar addres=
sing that is bothering me, there was never a truly "us" in the co=
nversations stated from Markus his part, at least that's how I received=
it.<br>
<br>
I don't know exactly "who" denied "what" to "w=
hom", and if it was a "confirmed denial" or "not reacti=
ng" to a "driven" statement.<br>
<br>
This one of those subjects where *everything* needs to be discussed in the =
open, otherwise discussion over hidden agendas will flare up in the future.=
<br>
<br>
And we all should know what it *exactly* was, as to prevent this from happe=
ning ever again.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">This would =
be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
And sadly, not everything is open for discussion in public, the Personal Id=
entfication Number of my bank account for one, or the <a href=3D"http://ged=
a-project.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">geda-project.org</a> ro=
ot password, or ...<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">True of =
course, but kind of extreme examples.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
I think you can come up with a scenario or two when vulnerable data gets ou=
t in the open.<br>
<br>
Give you a clue: one single gEDA administrator named ... <name of the fi=
rst person who grabs it> and all others administrators expelled.<br></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">DJ keeps backups.=C2=A0 If someone =
did something really destructive it would be obvious to all and he could ju=
st restore and we all start from there minus that person.=C2=A0 It's th=
e idea that slowing people down on their way into the project can somehow p=
revent it taking wrong steps that I think is so misguided.=C2=A0 Having loo=
ked inside pcb a good bit lately, I feel fairly safe saying that nobody is =
going to be taking it on any big detours in a hurry anyway.=C2=A0 Markus in=
particular was all about the bug fixes.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">
Now for the damage that has been done as I see it:<br>
<br>
1) At least two driven and known developers lost for gEDA, maybe one of the=
m turns around in a couple of years, or starts a fork to suit his ambitions=
.<br>
<br>
2) A number of potential developers lost, probably scared off by this "=
;feud", to be unknown to us for ever.<br>
<br>
3) More care and energy needed in the future to embed new developers, we do=
not want to walk this line again.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div styl=
e=3D"">Well, I think the policy should be to give people the permissions th=
ey ask for *FAST*, if they have put in some contributions and asked for the=
m. Debian has had this issue for years, they have this big elaborate proces=
s for new maintainers, they have some of the best old maintainers saying &q=
uot;wow, if it was like this when I started I'd never have bothered&quo=
t; and they still can't let go of the fun of dragging people through th=
eir process before letting them participate fully.=C2=A0 Hubris. =C2=A0gEDA=
is not nearly as bad, but it's not nearly as big a project either.=C2=
=A0 I fail to see the point of annoying contributors with barriers that are=
n't going to make them more competent, or align their interests more cl=
osely with anyone else's, or actually even weed anyone out at all.=C2=
=A0 You're just selecting for people who will put up with the hassle, a=
nd that characteristic is probably not well correlated with the ones you wa=
nt.=C2=A0 If you actually do (effectively, one way or another) reject peopl=
e, they may fork.=C2=A0 So what do you actually get by being restrictive or=
demanding hoop-jumping?</div><div style=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">Bri=
tton</div></div><br></div></div>
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