delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi   search  
Mail Archives: geda-user/2012/12/15/10:33:12

X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f
X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=message-id:subject:from:reply-to:to:date:in-reply-to:references
:content-type:x-mailer:mime-version;
bh=2WiVbIKSsVLFiJD3pfJdzw3PUiibpqWm9J4ZTFda8ww=;
b=ctbz8fuR1CMN81SkDobyUTDUhFjPD73vHEZTtIISraEOvQ7KmvNpVmZxRi6XfNKoVv
BiJgg6n2HdTqgkKU5UF/X0z79Vxh77SpnocWyILOW2zcQkIQweM7mOeAkd3ETDin9xzq
uwwb5rE3mXWi1H+2CLzOAzgTq+SCp9d/bUiR+m05KS1SCFkDgb7Zq0f3BTy2jBC7e1mt
8lwCaTEVdSGe5a3pBoW4LWj95e2SFSw8qv+CDHvc1L3warTsZX6WqMUNLyFMDcPdGLER
n0NFCWuFD7G5y2UdxO2JzZWrdCVfgukXHrw/g71Vzd8W73lvc8gH5RyKMmlx4k9jfmVM
Wg1g==
Message-ID: <1355585479.7067.26.camel@monster>
Subject: Re: [geda-user] Find rat lines - summary
From: Felipe De la Puente Christen <fdelapuente AT gmail DOT com>
To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:31:19 -0300
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1212141144250.26605@igor2priv>
References: <20121204183305 DOT 6b04c0dc AT jive DOT levalinux DOT org>
<20121208112649 DOT 388a9d22 AT jive DOT levalinux DOT org>
<1355011808 DOT 19390 DOT 8 DOT camel AT localhost>
<alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1212120740300 DOT 26605 AT igor2priv>
<alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1212122128060 DOT 26605 AT igor2priv>
<alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 00 DOT 1212141144250 DOT 26605 AT igor2priv>
X-Mailer: Evolution 3.2.3-0ubuntu6
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To: nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List: geda-user AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To: listserv AT delorie DOT com

--=-PM/fmSmjEMeuHeDoT2GS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 2012-12-14 at 11:47 +0100, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> I start to lose track of all the diverse ideas. This post is an effort to 
> >> structure the major directions. May it be incomplete, feel free to complete 
> >> it.
> >> 
> >> In case there is a short...
> >> 
> >> I. check whether we have history, since this way the qeustion is "what
> >>   user modification introduced the short" which might be more useful
> >>   than answer "which object(s) cause(s) the short at the moment".
> >> 
> >> 1. bisect using the undo buffer (as Kai-Martin Knaak does manually) -
> >>    does not work accross sessions (restart/load) and as Markus
> >>    Hitter pointed it out, fails when new netlist is loaded
> >> 
> >> 2. tag objects according to their first connection as suggested by Peter
> >>    Clifton. This info could be easily saved, making it immune to reload.
> >>    Needs more thoughts on some corner cases (new netlist, user moving and
> >>    object from one net to another)
> >> 
> >> 3. separate connection/netlist history (saved with the PCB). No details
> >>    yet.
> >> 
> >> II. no history available, try to highlight objects that are most likely to
> >>    help the user resolving the short. Nodes of the graph include
> >>    junctions, thermals, etc., much more verbose then the netlist.
> >> 
> >> 1. propagate nets from all nodes as suggested by Peter Clifton. Doing
> >>    this in parallel may cause a collision close to the "real place
> >>    of the short"
> >> 
> >> 2. find a minimal cut in a way the resulting graphs will reflect the
> >>    netlist and highlight only those cutting edge. To the end user this
> >>    means we find the smallest modification (deletion) that would fix the
> >>    problem (with or without leaving new rat lines). Sounds like an NP
> >>    hard problem, no working solution has been proposed in the thread yet.
> >> 
> >> 3. Peter Clifton's remove-edges-and-see-how-that-improves-the-situation.
> >>    A good metric is needed to make sure we can measure small improvements
> >>    in cases where multiple edges must be removed to resolve the short.
> >>    Likely to select more edges than the minimum.
> >> 
> >> 4.
> >>   stage 1
> >>    classify nodes/edges: each belongs to one of the affected nets or is
> >>    neutral (could be in multiple nets or could be removed without
> >>    breaking only short, not legal redundant connection in a net). Assume
> >>    only neutral nodes/edges may participate in the short. Question is how
> >>    to do the classification properly:
> >>
> >>    a. A modified version of Peter Clifton's propagation idea might work,
> >>       needs more thoughts.
> >>    b. A similar problem may be known in graph theory; Finding Steiner
> >>       tree for a net and trying to fit our nodes/edges on it would keep
> >>       the minimal amount (or length) of objects to form the net properly,
> >>       and take the rest as neutral. This Breaks badly with redundant
> >>       connections in a net. Needs more work.
> >>
> >>   stage 2
> >>    from stage 1 we already have sections with multiple nodes/edges that
> >>    are neutral and can be blamed for the short. If the user breaks each
> >>    such section, the short is resolved.
> >>
> >>    a. highlight these sections and let the user break each wherever
> >>       (s)he wants (need a way to differentiate between sections)
> >>    b. try to find the best place to cut each section
> >>       A. middle of the section
> >>       B. smallest modification (however we measure that)
> >>       C. heat up the section with the modified verison of Joshua Lansford
> >>          idea; this may be used to highlight the shortest/smallest
> >>          object
> >> 
> >> 
> > 5. minimal cut (proposed by Britton Kerin_ with the S->T modified
> >    connection graph; creating the modified graph is trival and there
> >    should be pseudo code and/or libraries available for calculating
> >    minimal cut. With uniformly wieghted edges it could reliably find the
> >    smallest amount of cuts resolving the short.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> III. manual net tagging
>       Do not use I. or II., require(?) the user to manually select a net
>       for each object placed and highlight shorts, as proposed by John Doty
>       and Levente Kovacs.
> 

Hi,

Am I missing something about III?   

 I see all copper objects being floating (i.e. no net attribute set) by
default unless you are explicitly routing already netlisted objects, in
which case the copper will automatically adopt the net attribute of the
startpoint.

What happens when a tagged copper object touches a floating copper
object?

Possible Handling Procedure:

1. Keep register(hash table?) of floating copper objects, and its
possible single associate (a tagged copper object).

2. if the tool finds itself adding a new tagged cooper associate to the
floating copper object:

2.1 if the new  associate has the same net attribute of the others, you
can add it to the associates list.

2.2. if the new associate has a different net attribute than the others,
stop right there and throw the user a dialog exposing the situation (a
floating copper object is shorting different nets), letting him take
actions accordingly. You have enough information here to describe the
situation clearly.

3. If the tool finds itself adding a new floating object associate,
merge them as a single floating copper object group.


That way you avoid annoying (and unneeded) warnings and manual net
attribute settings.

I don't see the user having to manually select a net for each object so
far...

Does it make any sense?

Thanks, Felipe.


--=-PM/fmSmjEMeuHeDoT2GS
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
  <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; CHARSET=UTF-8">
  <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="GtkHTML/4.2.2">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
On Fri, 2012-12-14 at 11:47 +0100, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, <A HREF="mailto:gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu">gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu</A> wrote:

&gt;
&gt;
&gt; On Wed, 12 Dec 2012, <A HREF="mailto:gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu">gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu</A> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hi all,
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; I start to lose track of all the diverse ideas. This post is an effort to 
&gt;&gt; structure the major directions. May it be incomplete, feel free to complete 
&gt;&gt; it.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; In case there is a short...
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; I. check whether we have history, since this way the qeustion is &quot;what
&gt;&gt;   user modification introduced the short&quot; which might be more useful
&gt;&gt;   than answer &quot;which object(s) cause(s) the short at the moment&quot;.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 1. bisect using the undo buffer (as Kai-Martin Knaak does manually) -
&gt;&gt;    does not work accross sessions (restart/load) and as Markus
&gt;&gt;    Hitter pointed it out, fails when new netlist is loaded
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 2. tag objects according to their first connection as suggested by Peter
&gt;&gt;    Clifton. This info could be easily saved, making it immune to reload.
&gt;&gt;    Needs more thoughts on some corner cases (new netlist, user moving and
&gt;&gt;    object from one net to another)
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 3. separate connection/netlist history (saved with the PCB). No details
&gt;&gt;    yet.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; II. no history available, try to highlight objects that are most likely to
&gt;&gt;    help the user resolving the short. Nodes of the graph include
&gt;&gt;    junctions, thermals, etc., much more verbose then the netlist.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 1. propagate nets from all nodes as suggested by Peter Clifton. Doing
&gt;&gt;    this in parallel may cause a collision close to the &quot;real place
&gt;&gt;    of the short&quot;
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 2. find a minimal cut in a way the resulting graphs will reflect the
&gt;&gt;    netlist and highlight only those cutting edge. To the end user this
&gt;&gt;    means we find the smallest modification (deletion) that would fix the
&gt;&gt;    problem (with or without leaving new rat lines). Sounds like an NP
&gt;&gt;    hard problem, no working solution has been proposed in the thread yet.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 3. Peter Clifton's remove-edges-and-see-how-that-improves-the-situation.
&gt;&gt;    A good metric is needed to make sure we can measure small improvements
&gt;&gt;    in cases where multiple edges must be removed to resolve the short.
&gt;&gt;    Likely to select more edges than the minimum.
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 4.
&gt;&gt;   stage 1
&gt;&gt;    classify nodes/edges: each belongs to one of the affected nets or is
&gt;&gt;    neutral (could be in multiple nets or could be removed without
&gt;&gt;    breaking only short, not legal redundant connection in a net). Assume
&gt;&gt;    only neutral nodes/edges may participate in the short. Question is how
&gt;&gt;    to do the classification properly:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;    a. A modified version of Peter Clifton's propagation idea might work,
&gt;&gt;       needs more thoughts.
&gt;&gt;    b. A similar problem may be known in graph theory; Finding Steiner
&gt;&gt;       tree for a net and trying to fit our nodes/edges on it would keep
&gt;&gt;       the minimal amount (or length) of objects to form the net properly,
&gt;&gt;       and take the rest as neutral. This Breaks badly with redundant
&gt;&gt;       connections in a net. Needs more work.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;   stage 2
&gt;&gt;    from stage 1 we already have sections with multiple nodes/edges that
&gt;&gt;    are neutral and can be blamed for the short. If the user breaks each
&gt;&gt;    such section, the short is resolved.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;    a. highlight these sections and let the user break each wherever
&gt;&gt;       (s)he wants (need a way to differentiate between sections)
&gt;&gt;    b. try to find the best place to cut each section
&gt;&gt;       A. middle of the section
&gt;&gt;       B. smallest modification (however we measure that)
&gt;&gt;       C. heat up the section with the modified verison of Joshua Lansford
&gt;&gt;          idea; this may be used to highlight the shortest/smallest
&gt;&gt;          object
&gt;&gt; 
&gt;&gt; 
&gt; 5. minimal cut (proposed by Britton Kerin_ with the S-&gt;T modified
&gt;    connection graph; creating the modified graph is trival and there
&gt;    should be pseudo code and/or libraries available for calculating
&gt;    minimal cut. With uniformly wieghted edges it could reliably find the
&gt;    smallest amount of cuts resolving the short.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

III. manual net tagging
      Do not use I. or II., require(?) the user to manually select a net
      for each object placed and highlight shorts, as proposed by John Doty
      and Levente Kovacs.

</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Am I missing something about III?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
 I see all copper objects being floating (i.e. no net attribute set) by default unless you are explicitly routing already netlisted objects, in which case the copper will automatically adopt the net attribute of the startpoint.<BR>
<BR>
What happens when a tagged copper object touches a floating copper object?<BR>
<BR>
Possible Handling Procedure:<BR>
<BR>
1. Keep register(hash table?) of floating copper objects, and its possible single associate (a tagged copper object).<BR>
<BR>
2. if the tool finds itself adding a new tagged cooper associate to the floating copper object:<BR>
<BR>
2.1 if the new&nbsp; associate has the same net attribute of the others, you can add it to the associates list.<BR>
<BR>
2.2. if the new associate has a different net attribute than the others, stop right there and throw the user a dialog exposing the situation (a floating copper object is shorting different nets), letting him take actions accordingly. You have enough information here to describe the situation clearly.<BR>
<BR>
3. If the tool finds itself adding a new floating object associate, merge them as a single floating copper object group.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That way you avoid annoying (and unneeded) warnings and manual net attribute settings.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see the user having to manually select a net for each object so far...<BR>
<BR>
Does it make any sense?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Felipe.<BR>
<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--=-PM/fmSmjEMeuHeDoT2GS--

- Raw text -


  webmaster     delorie software   privacy  
  Copyright 2019   by DJ Delorie     Updated Jul 2019