Mail Archives: geda-user/2020/12/10/11:43:23
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> On Dec 9, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Glenn (glimrick AT epilitimus DOT com) [via =
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>=20
> Okay so I think I now understand the direction you are coming at this
> from. However, I think there are use cases you are not taking into
> account. For instance perhaps I need to use a verilog simulator =
instead
> of spice. Or maybe I am using a proprietary simulator that only uses
> some non-spice netlist.
Then you add the appropriate annotations and support files for *that* =
approach, and use an appropriate netlister. spice-noqsi lets you draw =
what you=E2=80=99re intending to build and annotate it for simulation in =
SPICE. There=E2=80=99s no reason you can=E2=80=99t have annotations for =
other simulators if you have a back end that understands them.
> I also disagree that the component should not be in the schematic. =
Some
> users may be like me and prefer to see it. Others may be like you and
> prefer not to.
Remember, the schematics you publish to layout, manufacturing, QA, field =
supports, etc. need to be generally comprehensible. Simulation =
schematics are like a prototype, with extra wires tacked on and plugged =
into a specialized test fixture. spice-noqsi supports test fixtures in =
several ways. Test schematics with arbitrary connections may be fed to =
the netlister along with selected board schematics. Unlike earlier SPICE =
netlisters in gEDA, spice-noqsi can use hierarchy in a way that=E2=80=99s =
compatible with board design, making modular design and simulation work =
fluently.
But I approve of any add-ons to either gEDA or Lepton that support other =
flows. However, as a Lepton user, I do not want to see special jimcracks =
and geegaws added to Lepton to support specific flows: those belong in =
add-ons. spice-noqsi did not require any special code to support it. And =
who knows, I might return to gEDA at some point.
>=20
> Certainly if we are working on a circuit that has optional real world
> sections we want to see those as part of the schematic but still be =
able
> to mix and match them in both the simulation and non simulation =
contexts.
I do that by putting my test fixtures on separate schematics. It=E2=80=99s=
analogous to testing hardware on the bench.=20
>=20
> I am not advocating getting rid of anything that geda-gaf currently
> offers.
Except clean modularity, with specialized objectives served by optional =
scripts.
> I think SAB adds to it, just like spice-noqsi does. Both provide
> the user with tools, and in both cases the tools are completely =
optional
> and up to the user to employ or not as they see fit.
If you need changes to the core code, every user is using your changes =
whether they choose to or not.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
jpd AT noqsi DOT com
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 9, 2020, at 8:01 PM, Glenn (<a =
href=3D"mailto:glimrick AT epilitimus DOT com" =
class=3D"">glimrick AT epilitimus DOT com</a>) [via <a =
href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" =
class=3D"">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] <<a =
href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" =
class=3D"">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Okay so I think I now understand =
the direction you are coming at this</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">from. However, I think there are use cases you are not taking =
into</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">account. For =
instance perhaps I need to use a verilog simulator instead</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">of spice. Or maybe I am using a =
proprietary simulator that only uses</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">some non-spice netlist.</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Then you add the appropriate annotations and =
support files for *that* approach, and use an appropriate netlister. =
spice-noqsi lets you draw what you=E2=80=99re intending to build and =
annotate it for simulation in SPICE. There=E2=80=99s no reason you =
can=E2=80=99t have annotations for other simulators if you have a back =
end that understands them.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote=
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I also disagree that the component should not =
be in the schematic. Some<br class=3D"">users may be like me and prefer =
to see it. Others may be like you and<br class=3D"">prefer not to.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Remember, the =
schematics you publish to layout, manufacturing, QA, field supports, =
etc. need to be generally comprehensible. Simulation schematics are like =
a prototype, with extra wires tacked on and plugged into a specialized =
test fixture. spice-noqsi supports test fixtures in several ways. Test =
schematics with arbitrary connections may be fed to the netlister along =
with selected board schematics. Unlike earlier SPICE netlisters in gEDA, =
spice-noqsi can use hierarchy in a way that=E2=80=99s compatible with =
board design, making modular design and simulation work =
fluently.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But I approve of any =
add-ons to either gEDA or Lepton that support other flows. However, as a =
Lepton user, I do not want to see special jimcracks and geegaws added to =
Lepton to support specific flows: those belong in add-ons. spice-noqsi =
did not require any special code to support it. And who knows, I might =
return to gEDA at some point.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Certainly if we are working on a =
circuit that has optional real world<br class=3D"">sections we want to =
see those as part of the schematic but still be able<br class=3D"">to =
mix and match them in both the simulation and non simulation =
contexts.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I do that =
by putting my test fixtures on separate schematics. It=E2=80=99s =
analogous to testing hardware on the bench. </div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am not =
advocating getting rid of anything that geda-gaf currently<br =
class=3D"">offers.</blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Except clean =
modularity, with specialized objectives served by optional =
scripts.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""> =
I think SAB adds to it, just like spice-noqsi does. Both provide<br =
class=3D"">the user with tools, and in both cases the tools are =
completely optional<br class=3D"">and up to the user to employ or not as =
they see fit.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>If =
you need changes to the core code, every user is using your changes =
whether they choose to or not.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
line-height: normal;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><p =
style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica;" =
class=3D"">John Doty<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"> <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Noqsi =
Aerospace, Ltd.</font></p><p style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com" class=3D"">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a></p><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=
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