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Subject:	Re: [geda-user] We are about to alienate users was -> geda-gaf fork
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To:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
From:	"Girvin Herr (gherrl AT fastmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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Date:	Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:46:05 -0800
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On 02/14/2017 10:34 AM, Dave McGuire (mcguire AT neurotica DOT com) [via 
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> On 02/14/2017 12:10 PM, John Doty wrote:
>>>> gEDA attracted and retained *me*. I started out using it to capture
>>>> schematics for ngspice. Then, I was working with a layout contractor
>>>> using PH70, an obscure Lincoln Lab layout tool. I was able to cargo
>>>> cult a back end for that. Then it was IC design review (back to
>>>> ngspice). Then IC design, making netlists for a layout shop using
>>>> Cadence. A bunch of work on schematics for various customers with
>>>> various layout tool preferences. Abstract symbolic circuit analysis
>>>> with a Mathematica back end I wrote. Try navigating that with KiCAD.
>>>> gEDA covers a very different space: that’s what it’s for.
>>>
>>>  Very cool.  But that's what it's for *for you*.  I still think you 
>>> should fork gEDA for your own use.
>>
>> OK, what’s your story? Why aren’t you using KiCAD?
>
>   My story?  I design boards, both small and large ("large" to me 
> means more than a few hundred components), for both hobby and 
> commercial designs.  I use gschem for schematic capture and PCB for 
> layout. Sometimes I target ngspice, but for me, everything ends up in 
> solder in the end.  I drive my design flow with Makefiles.  I do 
> anywhere from 1-5 designs per month.  I do end-to-end designs from 
> conceptualization to functioning prototypes and small production runs, 
> including firmware if applicable, and rarely have to interface with 
> other designers/developers or their tools. (something for which I am 
> thankful)
>
>   I'm not using KiCAD because I chose gEDA+PCB back in 2003 and I have 
> a huge investment in time, symbols, footprints, and finished projects 
> (some of which occasionally need maintenance updates) all done with 
> these tools.  And, like you, I value flexibility and the toolkit 
> approach.
>
>   Because of all the progress-destroying crap and resistance to ANY 
> change that goes on on this list, I've looked into KiCAD a few times 
> in the past year or two, but I've never managed to actually get it 
> built. I could dig in and fix the build problems, but I have other 
> work that I must do.  At least gschem and PCB usually compile out of 
> the box.
>
>   But even if I'd gotten KiCAD running, I'd still have the huge of 
> investment of time and effort I've put into gEDA+PCB, plus the 
> learning curve of a new software package, plus the un-learning of all 
> the keystrokes etc that have become automatic for me over a decade and 
> a half.  I'm a busy person; that's a show-stopper for me.
>
>   Right now, gschem (v1.8.2), gsch2pcb, and gnetlist do what I need of 
> them.  There are some features I'd like to see, but honestly I could 
> probably keep using them as-is forever at this point.  But I (unlike 
> you, it seems) would like to see some forward progress with gschem.
>
>   Development on PCB all but stopped, years ago it seems, and I'm able 
> to just get by with what it can do now.  Don't get me wrong, I like 
> the program a lot and I'm very productive with it, but there are 
> problems and a lot of missing functionality.  Pcb-rnd is gaining 
> momentum and appears to be moving in a very good direction (I test 
> every release, and some of their development stuff), but until it 
> implements transparency I'd find it very difficult to use for daily 
> work.  I think many people don't realize how important/valuable 
> transparency is until they actually use it. The moment it gets 
> transparency, I'll be using pcb-rnd full time.
>
>                 -Dave
>
+1
Girvin Herr

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