Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/07/26/21:08:30
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| Tue, 26 Jul 2016 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
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| From: | "James Battat (jbattat AT wellesley DOT edu) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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| Subject: | Re: [geda-user] Re: Why we lost another user? -> Re: Why we just lost some users? -> Re: [geda-user] Stay or go?
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| Date: | Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:07:04 -0400
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Evan,
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Replies below:
>> * Difficulty to install on my machine (Mac) (e.g. here and here)
>> Eventually, but reluctantly, I gave up and settled on running =
gschem/pcb
>> in a linux virtual machine.
>> Once I chose to switch though, the linux install was painless.
>=20
> Ok should be have a livecd/usb, virtualbox or vmware image for people
> to play with?
Is a functional version for Mac OS X out of scope? Or maybe other folks =
have had success with geda on mac. I have not (well, gschem is sort of =
ok but I can=92t get pcb to run on a mac).
>> * Lack of coherent documentation for new users like myself to get off =
the
>> ground
>=20
> Should we have a manual that breaks down things for people who want
> the simple answer? Basically instead of trying to explain each tool in
> the chain but just how to use them in a flow?
Yes, I think that workflow-based tutorials are particularly useful, =
especially for new users.
The gschem->gsch2pcb->pcb and Your First Board tutorials were =
particularly helpful to me. But they could be brought up to date (such =
as Import Schematics feature).
I would guess that my goals as a new user were not unusual. I was =
looking for a workflow to take me from schematic to gerber for a custom =
board. I didn=92t need to run simulations. I had no desire/need to =
work with a netlist. I wanted to hop between schematic capture and =
layout without having to worry/know about how the connection between the =
two was handled.
I understand that the use of gschem does not lock you in to using pcb, =
but the two can certainly be used in harmony. A coherent set of =
documentation to guide new users down that (presumably very) common path =
would be helpful.
> 1. <How do I make a schematic with geda?>
> 2. <How do I make a schematic with geda and then turn it into a =
netlist
> to simulate it?>
> 3. <How do I simulate a netlist with ngspice?>
> 4. <How do I simulate a netlist with gnucap?>
> 5. <How do I simulate a netlist with xyce?>
> 6. <How do I make a schematic with geda and then a board layout with =
pcb?
> 7. <How do I make a schematic with geda and then a board with pcb =
using a
> Makefile to automate it?>
> 8. <How do I make a schematic in geda to make a board with pcb and a
> netlist to simulate it?>
All good things. As a new user, I would have benefitted most from #1, =
6, 7 (and also an easy-to-follow guide to custom symbol and footprint =
generation).
>> For example, I had been following the recommendation to use gsch2pcb
>> (which is the first listed tutorial for how to start using gEDA) for =
more
>> than a year before I stumbled upon the =93Import Schematic=94 feature =
in pcb.
>> And, IIRC, the documentation for that is scattered throughout mailing =
list
>> posts.
>=20
> Can you explain what was in coherent. Was gEDA's stuff not matching up
> with PCB's documentation or was it the wiki's tendency to point people
> off at example projects rather than a specific part of the manual? I
> want to really understand how we led you down a rabbit hole.
As a comparison to the geda wiki, see for example the KiCad =93Getting =
Started" page and associated Getting Started Guide.
Or the similar documentation for Eagle.
Pages like this:
http://wiki.geda-project.org/geda:pcb_tips
were immensely helpful to me later in the process, when I was searching =
for a specific tip during a board design, but much less so in my early =
days.
>> * Lack of searchable archive of the mailing list(?) Maybe there is =
one, but
>> I haven=92t found it.
>> As a result, I often stumble across useful mailing list content by
>> accident when doing somewhat related google searches (e.g. the Import
>> Schematic example above).
>=20
> Ok.
So is there a searchable/browsable archive of the mailing list? =20
I know about this archive but it segments postings by day, making casual =
browsing impractical, and search is restricted to a 2, 3 or 4 day =
look-back time.
> 1. Could you make a list of the useful stuff?
See below for a couple examples.
> 2. What made it useful. Was the content unique or was it just better
> at explaining things?
It was useful because I had never seen it before, even after spending =
time on the geda website. i.e. features/techniques/workarounds that I =
didn=92t know existed.
e.g. the Import Schematics feature. Or how to ensure that pcb didn=92t =
use the default library elements (even though the configuration file =
requested that it did not =97 presumably this is not desired behavior =
and something needs to be fixed in pcb...). I can=92t think of others =
right now. Often they were small things =97 time savers, =93power user=94=
tips, etc.
> 3. Could we fold the questions it answered into a FAQ or other =
document?
Yes, absolutely.=20
>> * No straightforward way to share a design (with relevant
>> symbols/footprints) to collaborators.
>> see e.g. recent discussion on that topic.
>=20
> Ok. Could that be another item in the list of potential documentation
> I made earlier
> <How to bundle a schematic for distribution>
> <How to bundle a pcb for distribution>
> <How to bundle a simulation for distribution>
Yes.
>> I work at a college, and the issues above pose a barrier to =
collaborating
>=20
> OT: I was there a little while ago. My gf was there in her reunion,
> she likes having reasons to visit the place. If you want to meet in
> real life to talk about how geda could be different let me know.
I=92d be happy to.
>> with students who are new to EDA. i.e. it makes it hard to =93bring =
new users
>> into the fold.=94 In contrast, there is ample Eagle/KiCad =
documentation, and
>> the students prefer to start there.
>=20
> Ok. I will look at that stuff and ask more questions of you later. I
> want to understand exactly what the difference is.
Sounds good
>> Since 2014, I've posted many questions to geda-help and geda-user, =
and the
>> responses are often helpful and quick, and I really appreciate that.
>> But sometimes it=92s clear that there just isn=92t a straightforward =
solution to
>> the issue, and often no sense that a solution is coming soon.
>=20
> Yes. I understand that.
>=20
>> Some examples:
>>=20
>> * Bug in pcb when flipping component to back side of board
>=20
> Is that still broken?
Can=92t say for sure =97 I am reluctant to alter my installation to find =
out.
But here=92s a simple 2-step test that can be done to check:
In a new pcb file:
1) Manually insert one 0805.fp element from the default library.
2) Flip the element to the back-side (push =93B=94 when mouse is over =
element).
The visible pad dimensions will be incorrect (though when you drag the =
part, the pad outline =97 thin red line on my machine =97 will be =
correct).
If, however, you place the 0805.fp, then rotate, then flip to back side, =
the pad dimensions will be correct. This is my current work-around to =
the bug.
I posted more details (and figures) online.
>> * No good way to implement single-point grounding in pcb (or to =
specify it
>> in gschem).
>> The recommended work-around was to use a capital letter I on a =
copper
>> layer to bridge AGND and DGND, which only works because the pcb DRC =
ignores
>> text...
>=20
> Yea that is pretty bad.
>=20
>> * Can=92t omit the solder mask layer in pcb
>=20
> You don't want solder mask for a whole board? or is this the issue of
> selective mask removal?
My original question was about the former, but I=92ve since had a board =
where I wanted to remove only part of the solder mask.
>> * pcb insists on using elements from the default library (without =
manually
>> deleting the default library). e.g. (here and here)
>=20
> ok.
>=20
>> Overall though, I like the unixy aspects of gschem/pcb enough to =
stick with
>> it and puzzle things out. So please know that I am very appreciative =
of the
>> existence of both programs and of the community that supports them.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
>> James
>=20
> Evan
>=20
> --=20
> Home
> http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/
> Work
> http://forge.abcd.harvard.edu/gf/project/epl_engineering/wiki/
>=20
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>=20
--Apple-Mail=_65F8C580-E5D6-411F-9C72-4D86A6DF697F
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;">Evan,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the thoughtful =
responses. Replies below:</div><div><br><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">* Difficulty to install on my =
machine (Mac) (e.g. here and here)</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
Eventually, but reluctantly, I gave up and settled on running =
gschem/pcb<br>in a linux virtual machine.<br> Once I chose to =
switch though, the linux install was painless.<br></blockquote><br>Ok =
should be have a livecd/usb, virtualbox or vmware image for people<br>to =
play with?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is a functional version =
for Mac OS X out of scope? Or maybe other folks have had success =
with geda on mac. I have not (well, gschem is <a =
href=3D"http://academics.wellesley.edu/Physics/jbattat/geda/issues/">sort =
of ok</a> but I can=92t get pcb to run on a =
mac).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">* Lack of coherent documentation for new users like myself =
to get off the<br>ground<br></blockquote><br>Should we have a manual =
that breaks down things for people who want<br>the simple answer? =
Basically instead of trying to explain each tool in<br>the chain but =
just how to use them in a flow?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, =
I think that workflow-based tutorials are particularly useful, =
especially for new users.</div><div>The <a =
href=3D"http://wiki.geda-project.org/geda:gsch2pcb_tutorial">gschem->gs=
ch2pcb->pcb</a> and <a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/pcb/docs/gs/gs.html#Your-First-Board">Your =
First Board</a> tutorials were particularly helpful to me. =
But they could be brought up to date (such as Import =
Schematics feature).</div><div><br></div><div>I would guess that my =
goals as a new user were not unusual. I was looking for a workflow =
to take me from schematic to gerber for a custom board. I didn=92t =
need to run simulations. I had no desire/need to work with a =
netlist. I wanted to hop between schematic capture and layout =
without having to worry/know about how the connection between the =
two was handled.</div><div><br></div><div>I understand that the use of =
gschem does not lock you in to using pcb, but the two can certainly be =
used in harmony. A coherent set of documentation to guide new =
users down that (presumably very) common path would be =
helpful.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">1. <How do I =
make a schematic with geda?><br>2. <How do I make a schematic with =
geda and then turn it into a netlist<br>to simulate it?><br>3. =
<How do I simulate a netlist with ngspice?><br>4. <How do I =
simulate a netlist with gnucap?><br>5. <How do I simulate a =
netlist with xyce?><br>6. <How do I make a schematic with geda and =
then a board layout with pcb?<br>7. <How do I make a schematic with =
geda and then a board with pcb using a<br>Makefile to automate =
it?><br>8. <How do I make a schematic in geda to make a board with =
pcb and a<br>netlist to simulate =
it?><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>All good things. As a =
new user, I would have benefitted most from #1, 6, 7 (and also an =
easy-to-follow guide to custom symbol and footprint =
generation).</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
For example, I had been following the recommendation to use =
gsch2pcb<br>(which is the first listed tutorial for how to start using =
gEDA) for more<br>than a year before I stumbled upon the =93Import =
Schematic=94 feature in pcb.<br>And, IIRC, the documentation for that is =
scattered throughout mailing list<br>posts.<br></blockquote><br>Can you =
explain what was in coherent. Was gEDA's stuff not matching up<br>with =
PCB's documentation or was it the wiki's tendency to point people<br>off =
at example projects rather than a specific part of the manual? I<br>want =
to really understand how we led you down a rabbit =
hole.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>As a comparison to the =
geda wiki, see for example the KiCad =93<a =
href=3D"http://kicad-pcb.org/help/getting-started/">Getting Started" =
page</a> and associated <a =
href=3D"http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/stable/en/getting_started_in_kicad.pdf">=
Getting Started Guide</a>.</div><div>Or the similar documentation for =
Eagle.</div><div><br></div><div>Pages like this:</div></div><div> =
<a =
href=3D"http://wiki.geda-project.org/geda:pcb_tips">http://wiki.geda-proje=
ct.org/geda:pcb_tips</a></div><div>were immensely helpful to me later in =
the process, when I was searching for a specific tip during a board =
design, but much less so in my early days.</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">* Lack of searchable archive of =
the mailing list(?) Maybe there is one, but<br>I haven=92t found =
it.<br> As a result, I often stumble across useful mailing list =
content by<br>accident when doing somewhat related google searches (e.g. =
the Import<br>Schematic example =
above).<br></blockquote><br>Ok.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So =
is there a searchable/browsable archive of the mailing list? =
</div><div>I know about <a =
href=3D"http://www.delorie.com/archives/browse.cgi?p=3Dgeda-user">this =
archive</a> but it segments postings by day, making casual browsing =
impractical, and search is restricted to a 2, 3 or 4 day look-back =
time.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">1. Could you make a =
list of the useful stuff?<br></blockquote><br>See below for a couple =
examples.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">2. What made it =
useful. Was the content unique or was it just better<br>at explaining =
things?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It was useful because I had =
never seen it before, even after spending time on the geda website. =
i.e. features/techniques/workarounds that I didn=92t know =
existed.</div><div>e.g. the Import Schematics feature. Or how to =
ensure that pcb didn=92t use the default library elements (even though =
the configuration file requested that it did not =97 presumably this is =
not desired behavior and something needs to be fixed in pcb...). I =
can=92t think of others right now. Often they were small things =97 =
time savers, =93power user=94 tips, etc.</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">3. Could we fold the questions it answered into a FAQ or =
other document?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, =
absolutely. </div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">* No straightforward way to =
share a design (with relevant<br>symbols/footprints) to =
collaborators.<br> see e.g. recent discussion on that =
topic.<br></blockquote><br>Ok. Could that be another item in the list of =
potential documentation<br>I made earlier<br><How to bundle a =
schematic for distribution><br><How to bundle a pcb for =
distribution><br><How to bundle a simulation for =
distribution><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes.</div><br><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">I work at a college, and =
the issues above pose a barrier to collaborating<br></blockquote><br>OT: =
I was there a little while ago. My gf was there in her reunion,<br>she =
likes having reasons to visit the place. If you want to meet in<br>real =
life to talk about how geda could be different let me =
know.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=92d be happy =
to.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">with =
students who are new to EDA. i.e. it makes it hard to =93bring new =
users<br>into the fold.=94 In contrast, there is ample Eagle/KiCad =
documentation, and<br>the students prefer to start =
there.<br></blockquote><br>Ok. I will look at that stuff and ask more =
questions of you later. I<br>want to understand exactly what the =
difference is.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sounds =
good</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Since 2014, I've posted many questions to geda-help and =
geda-user, and the<br>responses are often helpful and quick, and I =
really appreciate that.<br>But sometimes it=92s clear that there just =
isn=92t a straightforward solution to<br>the issue, and often no sense =
that a solution is coming soon.<br></blockquote><br>Yes. I understand =
that.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Some examples:<br><br>* Bug in =
pcb when flipping component to back side of board<br></blockquote><br>Is =
that still broken?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Can=92t say for =
sure =97 I am reluctant to alter my installation to find =
out.</div><div>But here=92s a simple 2-step test that can be done to =
check:</div><div><br></div><div>In a new pcb file:<br>1) Manually insert =
one 0805.fp element from the default library.<br>2) Flip the element to =
the back-side (push =93B=94 when mouse is over element).<br>The visible =
pad dimensions will be incorrect (though when you drag the part, the pad =
outline =97 thin red line on my machine =97 will be correct).<br><br>If, =
however, you place the 0805.fp, then rotate, then flip to back side, the =
pad dimensions will be correct. This is my current work-around to =
the bug.<br><br></div><div>I posted more details (and figures) <a =
href=3D"http://academics.wellesley.edu/Physics/jbattat/geda/issues/flipbug=
.html">online</a>.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">* No good way to implement =
single-point grounding in pcb (or to specify it<br>in gschem).<br> =
The recommended work-around was to use a capital letter I on a =
copper<br>layer to bridge AGND and DGND, which only works because the =
pcb DRC ignores<br>text...<br></blockquote><br>Yea that is pretty =
bad.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">* Can=92t omit the solder mask =
layer in pcb<br></blockquote><br>You don't want solder mask for a whole =
board? or is this the issue of<br>selective mask =
removal?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My original question was =
about the former, but I=92ve since had a board where I wanted to remove =
only part of the solder mask.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">* pcb insists on using elements =
from the default library (without manually<br>deleting the default =
library). e.g. (here and =
here)<br></blockquote><br>ok.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Overall =
though, I like the unixy aspects of gschem/pcb enough to stick =
with<br>it and puzzle things out. So please know that I am very =
appreciative of the<br>existence of both programs and of the community =
that supports them.<br></blockquote><br>Thanks.<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">James<br></blockquote><br>Evan<br><br>-- <br>Home<br><a =
href=3D"http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/">http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/=
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