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	Sat, 23 Jul 2016 02:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
Date:	Sat, 23 Jul 2016 12:16:07 +0300
From:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To:	geda-user AT delorie DOT com
Subject:	Re: [geda-user] [OT] ngspice integration in KiCad
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On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 08:26:33PM +0200, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2016, Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:00:53PM +0100, Gareth Edwards (gareth AT edwardsfamily DOT org DOT uk) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> >...
> >>May be of interest to the gEDA community
> >...
> >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_-hdRcf4U
> >...
> >
> >We were proud, and we have grown poor.
> >
> >Some day before, we were ahead.
> >
> >Now, this is what we have due to everybody want 'do it my
> >way / in my preferred language', I believe.
> 
> You included. Did you consider giving up scheme and joining one of the
> alternatives instead?

This was what I've started my work on gEDA from. I wrote scripts
in bash and awk to modify symbols, and then rewrote some functions
in tragesym written in Python to do it the way I want. Then I
modified po4a (I've already mentioned this in another email) to
work on my translation of the gEDA wiki documentation. Generally,
I tried to work as is convenient to me. Eventually, I've
understood that it is not pragmatic. I had to rewrite many
functions that are already available. My first contributions were
in C, and I didn't understand and didn't like Scheme at all. I
have started to work on gEDA in 2009 and only in 2014 I started to
write Scheme scripts. Now I see that comparison of Scheme with C
is the same as comparison of C with some asm. While I like C very
much I know it is not as convenient as guile to prototype
functions you want. Before doing some changing in our rendering
code in gschem I prototyped the code in guile. I found it hard way
that many C GUI libraries have inherent and probably incurable
issues with threading [1] which are hanging for years. I've said
this because it is easy to use interpreted languages to
work-around such issues.

If the alternative you are trying to offer is C, you're off the
point. It is already in, and it adds nothing. See, my recently
done contributions are mostly done in Scheme. While the code there
is not touching the C code we have, it does some attractive work
(I hope).

If you're writing about Python or some other interpreted language,
I should say that I feel it is non-pragmatic to `rewrite it all'
as some people offer. I see there is not enough contributions for
every language people are suggesting for our project. Basically,
we have one Scheme contributor (me), one Python contributor
(Roland) and one C glib/gtk contributor (Edward), though I'm
trying to work on the glib/C part too. Peter Brett and Peter
Clifton, who both did an immence amount of work before, are now
busy with other things, so they cannot help much. Anyway, I don't
want to discourage Roland or Edward. Therefore I do most of my
work in Scheme trying to not touch the C code they rely on. Now, I
like Scheme very much, though I can say, if it all is written in
Python, I would continue to work on it (I believe).

> 
> I believe having alternatives does not subtract but add. Don't assume that
> the time some of those "my way" guys would have been spent on "your way"
> automatically if the given person didn't invest it in an alternative.
> 
> Instead, there are very high chances that that time would have been spent on
> some other project. In which case that time is totally lost from geda point
> of view.
> 
> Thus bashing people for not following your way does not do any good. This
> sort of behaviour contributes in getting poor more than forks or
> alternatives. I know relaizing that "their way for them is as true as your
> way for you" is hard, but you could maybe try.

This all is why I'm tolerating xorn in geda-gaf, and probably our
pcb developers are tolerating your ads while you seem to break our
(not so large) community. I see your and Roland's great work, but
the attitude you have chosen is not consolidating. BTW, there is
another side of the coin. Xorn still fails in various places and
on different machines for me (at home or at work), and I have no
time to work on it, so I wouldn't release it as is now. OTOH, it
prevents me to release the new version of the whole geda-gaf
because it needs much more work than if it wouldn't be in. I tried
to discuss this with other developers, but they (like me) don't
want to discourage Roland, because he does a great work, and
nobody wants to have his work thrown out. Now, I have more
problems and less time (some of them I've mentioned in another
email). I hoped to do a new release before August, though I'm not
sure now.

> 
> Be proud again and support those who invest time in developing any part of
> geda -- even if it's not done in scheme.

Well, now I'm trying to do the best I can :-) I see a great
potential in gEDA. I used things prototyped/written in other
languages to make some more convenient things in gschem
before. Hope I finish them some day. Obviously, if everybody tries
to do it alone, he/she won't have rapid progress, so I hope to see
at least some feedback on what I've already did ;-)


[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pango1.0/+bug/259444

-- 
  Vladimir

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