Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/02/29/12:44:28
--Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
On Feb 29, 2016, at 9:54 AM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>> gschem: hackish and limited, most of the limitations stem from
>>> design, but it actually does its job surprisingly well on the
>>> common daily stuff.
>>=20
>> And on the uncommon stuff, too. Today's task is to assemble a SPICE
>> file that, combined with other scripts, will allow a test engineer
>> to plot the expected scope traces for a given configuration of an
>> instrument with many configuration options.
>=20
> Perhaps drawing a schematic for a spice simulation is common daily
> stuff, then.
>=20
>>> When I need something new and strange, it's a PITA to add,
>>=20
>> But at least you *can*:
>=20
> Hey, it's software, at least you *can* rewrite it to do anything. You
> missed the message completely: It's *difficult* to do. Perhaps you
> could put some effort into making it easier?
There=92s a distinction between rewriting and scripting. I=92ve never =
had to rewrite a single line of code in gschem, gnetlist, or libgeda to =
do a very wide variety of things. A few lines of Scheme or AWK usually =
suffice to do what I need. Developers code, users script, consumers do =
neither.
>=20
>>> because some of the most trivial and basic concepts are missing by =
design.
>>=20
>> And that is the Unix design philosophy,
>=20
> It's a poor philosophy when it results in a tool that's missing
> "trivial and basic concepts". It's a like a "cat" command that can't
> take more than one input file.
>=20
> Any please stop with the "ancient unix philosophy" argument. If the
> tool is difficult to use by the target users, something is wrong.
Who are the target users? It used to be =93anybody computer-literate =
who=92s using any tool that can read a netlist=94, but that idea doesn=92t=
fit the pcb culture. I think you mean consumers, not users. There=92s a =
place for consumer software, but gschem isn=92t consumer software. It=92s =
for users, not consumers.
> Why
> not find out what's causing the difficulty and try to fix it, instead
> of putting the onus on the users to figure out what philosophy they
> should have adopted?
Because I think there should be a toolkit for those of us who need the =
open-ended capability that the Unix philosophy leads to. Imitating KiCAD =
is a dead end.
>=20
>> But networks shouldn't exist. Having gschem understand networks is
>> like cat -v. Networks are gnetlist's job. Fundamentally, gschem
>> edits pages, not circuits.
>=20
> Fundamentally, gschem edits schematics, not pages. Dumbing it down to
> "just editing pages" is like using Microsoft Paint to do architectural
> design. Sure, it works, but it's not smart enough to work well.
No, it=92s just like using an editor to create program source code, a =
page at a time. The editor is not responsible for the things that make, =
the compiler, and the linker do. That=92s good modularity.
>=20
>>> and that "scheme is so great that everyone must learn it", etc.
>>=20
>> Scheme is just another programming language. Guile is a rather
>> undisciplined implementation of it. It's not wonderful, but it's not
>> a barrier unless you make it one.
>=20
> It's a barrier because it has an intrinsic learning curve that must be
> assigned a cost and priority. It makes it difficult for people to
> justify using gEDA *at all* because the cost of adoption is that much
> higher. Pointing out that this cost is *expected of everyone* doesn't
> help.
But it=92s the cost of a flexible, extensible system. I know you don=92t =
really want that. You want Word, I want LaTeX. LaTeX is actually what we =
have, and some of us need it. That=92s our fundamental divide. The logic =
of what you express should lead you to the conclusion that what you =
really want is a schematic plugin for pcb.
>=20
>> Gschem is a page editor.
>=20
> Too bad it's not a schematic editor. That would be useful.
>=20
It=92s darn useful. It enables me to do jobs solo that would require a =
team with other tools.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com
--Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org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=RCrs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Apple-Mail=_60F04DBB-1666-41EC-9A2F-C91E4F0E1BDE--
- Raw text -