Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/02/28/15:51:16
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On Feb 28, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 6:11 AM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Feb 28, 2016, at 7:07 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak <kmk AT familieknaak DOT de> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> John Doty wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>> as well since it will help gschem stay viable long-term,
>>>>=20
>>>> Gschem has no such problem.
>>>=20
>>> CERN chose kicad rather than gschem for their open hardware
>>> initiative. Same with a number of high profile open hardware =
projects.
>>> See http://kicad-pcb.org/made-with-kicad/ for some examples.
>>=20
>> And more people choose Word than LaTeX. That doesn=92t mean that =
LaTeX isn=92t a better choice for those of us who use it, or that it =
should be more like Word (at your suggestion, I tried Lyx. Ugh. =
Inflexible and difficult. Combines the disadvantages of both =
approaches).
>>=20
>> Eleven days ago, JAXA launched Hitomi (ASTRO-H) with ASICs designed =
with geda-gaf and ngspice on board. Quietest CCD measurement chains ever =
put into space.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please don't delude yourself int the perception everything is =
working
>>> alright, when it clearly isn=92t.
>>=20
>> Clearly not. But there=92s a profound difference between what pcb =
users want and what geda-gaf provides. Geda-gaf's application space is =
far broader, but pcb users want something more targeted. Of course, =
geda-gaf is pretty simple and flexible, and we who script it can aim it =
at whatever target we wish. But there's a big faction here who don=92t =
want to do that: they conceive of something as hard-wired, complicated, =
and inflexible as pcb (but perhaps easier to use for *their* =
application).
>=20
> pcb has an action system. It has batch mode. It has a plugin system. =
It has
> a text file format. It doesn't aspire to be "hard-wired" any more =
than gschem.
> A number of people are working on making it more scriptable, not less =
so.
But it doesn=92t have flexible abstractions underneath these things. Pcb =
simply can=92t do anything that fails to conform to a limited set of =
intentions reflecting use cases. It=92s not a =93stack of materials=94 =
editor: it can only handle a weirdly restricted subset.
Gschem is an unspecialized topology editor built on highly flexible =
abstractions. Add a suitable symbol library and it can represent the =
topology of a printed circuit, an ASIC, a Makefile, or plumbing. There =
are a few blemishes, e.g. slotting, where it hard-wires use cases, =
pcb-style. Perhaps we can move those to optional scripts in the future.
>> It=92s also true that much of geda-gaf=92s intelligence is actually =
in your symbol library, so assembling a good symbol library for a =
particular purpose is a large part of the challenge. But as you know, =
this is also fraught with difficulty, because even the pcb application =
space isn=92t a coherent, monolithic thing.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It has been stable and productive for
>>>> well over a decade.
>>>=20
>>> Just like pcb. Only that in this case it is decades.
>>=20
>> Except that if you watch this list, the most common topic is problems =
with pcb. A significant subset is problems with pcb that people expect =
geda-gaf to work
>=20
> That's because what pcb is trying to do is harder.
Is it that the problem is intrinsically harder, or that the approach of =
implementing a function for every use case ad hoc makes the problem =
harder?
>=20
>>> Do you remember the poll I did a while ago? The results were non-
>>> ambiguous.
>>=20
>> No, they were on a pcb-dominated forum. Not an unbiased sample.
>=20
> The forum in question is also the largest gschem forum
Indeed. That=92s a problem. We really need to separate the projects. =
What=92s here of interest to a gschem user who doesn=92t use pcb? People =
like Paul Tan don=92t seem to post anymore.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com
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