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Mail Archives: geda-user/2016/01/02/22:08:06

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Subject: Re: [geda-user] A fileformat library
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From: John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com>
In-Reply-To: <CAC4O8c-5S-PgE=RFXrAG2xRzmV4x3odVip0eUwih-iEzXs-UOg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 20:07:41 -0700
Message-Id: <AE426D72-46DE-4941-9D58-95015A10C6EA@noqsi.com>
References: <1512221837 DOT AA25291 AT ivan DOT Harhan DOT ORG> <CAJXU7q_mXmipJ1fLvLpuLvnYjktV2SHoA+bG=L5+E-EfdygeOA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <s6n37uumanm DOT fsf AT blaulicht DOT dmz DOT brux> <CAJXU7q_qxdvJaejF-VcY=u7VHZ-zrfrc+Z7-qSwfFyPdy-umxw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <B02363CD-469D-493A-AC15-1D5DC7836982 AT noqsi DOT com> <20151222232230 DOT 12633 DOT qmail AT stuge DOT se> <0F6F1D0F-4F07-48EA-90FE-836EAD4E2354 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAM2RGhTficnys3a4xs=UBFvk8aPwpzYWUADFLP_pUQ+R1iKs0g AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <0FCF3774-F93C-4BFF-BB61-636F75DCCACB AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c_UAiFE-vGfoE2tXppHLhaa0dSYz9o_rkdCBo7_SRRtxw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <FFBE7623-E240-4798-96B0-2BECF56C8E29 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c980g1gj15=5njstC_BT-WYDgKQx9BRycdFKA8OvgtiOg AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <B54C0E1F-1986-4C79-9F70-7F1919B8B26D AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c9bxJP1eMG4yz3YwKkQJRmsDGmLQ0aMd5pJRyu0WpdCtQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <C1CFCCEE-C64A-4E49-AA64-446C061656D6 AT noqsi DOT com> <CAC4O8c-zt8B=joDd+ws77D2jt6aZf3MWfR_dAvpzGcNuBrTURQ AT mail DOT gmail DOT com> <alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 11 DOT 1601030040320 DOT 2176 AT newt> <CAC4O8c_R5xWLmzj_cz0g0mPWNs6mR4efjXKGBoup8YO6!
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On Jan 2, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) [via =
geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 4:38 PM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>=20
> On Jan 2, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>=20
>> Personally I find formats like this:
>>=20
>>   device=3DRESISTOR
>>   T 44400 49300 5 10 1 1 90 0 1
>>=20
>> substantially less readable than ones with field names, but they are =
indeed easy to parse.
>=20
> Personally, I rarely edit these things manually except for the text =
fields, which are not difficult to find. The fact that they=92re easy to =
parse is handy for automation.
>=20
>>   The pcb format is quite a bit more elaborate and the savings from =
not rolling your own parser are more significant.
>>=20
>> I think you're criteria for what should go in libgeda are spot-on =
btw.  Nor do I have any problem with a C interface calling python or =
gschem or for that matter C++.  I do think providing a clean C interface =
to libgeda gets by far the best return on investment, since it's so =
widely known and with a little care wrappers can then be provided almost =
automatically for a wide variety of languages (via SWIG or some other =
similar mechanism -- or maybe Xorn facilitates this, I'm a little =
unclear).
>=20
> I don=92t find deconstructing C data structures particularly easier =
than parsing the format above. Just another layer I have to penetrate to =
get to the data. I do significant processing with simple things like =
sed, which don=92t handle binary data.
>=20
> Wrappers CAN be provided, but will they? FFI programming is not the =
easiest thing. I hear  complaints about the need for developers to =
maintain code. It seems to me that one way to address these concerns is =
to avoid and eliminate unnecessary code.
>=20
> Good question.  It's a great result if you get it but a lot more work =
than using a serialization library, which is why the latter approach =
seems to me like a useful step in the right direction.

Serialization library? Why do you want a extra, unnecessary, opaque =
interface? What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?

>=20
> Britton

John Doty              Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On Jan 2, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Britton =
Kerin (<a =
href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>) =
[via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 2, 2016 at 4:38 PM, John Doty <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com" =
target=3D"_blank">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><span=
 class=3D""><div>On Jan 2, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Britton Kerin (<a =
href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com" =
target=3D"_blank">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>) [via <a =
href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" =
target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com" =
target=3D"_blank">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px">Personally I find formats like this:<br><br>&nbsp; =
device=3DRESISTOR<br>&nbsp; T 44400 49300 5 10 1 1 90 0 =
1<br><br>substantially less readable than ones with field names, but =
they are indeed easy to =
parse.</div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>Personally, I rarely edit =
these things manually except for the text fields, which are not =
difficult to find. The fact that they=92re easy to parse is handy for =
automation.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px">&nbsp; The pcb format is quite a bit more elaborate and the =
savings from not rolling your own parser are more =
significant.<br></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><br></div></span><span class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px">I think you're criteria for what should go in libgeda are =
spot-on btw.&nbsp; Nor do I have any problem with a C interface calling =
python or gschem or for that matter C++.&nbsp; I do think providing a =
clean C interface to libgeda gets by far the best return on investment, =
since it's so widely known and with a little care wrappers can then be =
provided almost automatically for a wide variety of languages (via SWIG =
or some other similar mechanism -- or maybe Xorn facilitates this, I'm a =
little unclear).</div></span></blockquote><br></div><div>I don=92t find =
deconstructing C data structures particularly easier than parsing the =
format above. Just another layer I have to penetrate to get to the data. =
I do significant processing with simple things like sed, which don=92t =
handle binary data.</div><div><br></div><div>Wrappers CAN be provided, =
but will they? FFI programming is not the easiest thing. I hear =
&nbsp;complaints about the need for developers to maintain code. It =
seems to me that one way to address these concerns is to avoid and =
eliminate unnecessary code.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div =
style=3D"">Good question.&nbsp; It's a great result if you get it but a =
lot more work than using a serialization library, which is why the =
latter approach seems to me like a useful step in the right =
direction.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Serializatio=
n library? Why do you want a extra, unnecessary, opaque interface? What, =
exactly, are you trying to accomplish?</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div =
style=3D"">Britton</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><p style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">John Doty<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span>Noqsi =
Aerospace, Ltd.</font></p><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px"><a href=3D"http://www.noqsi.com/">http://www.noqsi.com/</a></p><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a></font></p><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br></body></html>=

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