Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/10/20/09:53:50
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On Oct 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Britton Kerin (britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com) =
[via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:41 PM, John Doty <jpd AT noqsi DOT com> wrote:
>=20
> On Oct 19, 2015, at 5:40 PM, DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>=20
> >
> >>> My sample schematic would have U1-1 and U1-1.
> >>
> >> So you don't really have a refdes to start from: it doesn't =
identify
> >> the component.
> >
> > Wordplay. It has a refdes. It's not unique. We do this all the =
time
> > for slotted and multi-sym parts.
> >
> > And that reference was to show how easy it is for a user to
> > instantiate symbols that don't have a unique identity, a problem you
> > still haven't addressed.
>=20
> It=92s easy to do all kinds of dysfunctional things with a power tool. =
To reliably prevent dysfunction, you have to take away the power.
>=20
> You sound like a surgeon resisting a checklist.
Not at all. I=92m one of the minority who use gnet-drc2 despite its =
flaws.
> "Sure I sometimes take out the wrong kidney, BFD I'm smart I don't =
need that". Power tools shouldn't gratuitously force you to remember =
things a competent tool can easily remember for you.
And the toolkit should have a way to *advise* you. Not *force* you to =
conform, as DJ wants.
Do you know how to tell a valid Switcap schematic from an invalid one? =
Neither do I. Who=92s to say?
> If refdes aren't gonna be unique then some other thing should exist =
that makes obviously distinct symbols unique.
Yes. And since gschem doesn=92t have complete knowledge of the =
environment in which the schematic page will be used, it can=92t be the =
enforcer.
> I don't remember what ugly thing gEDA did to me with duplicate =
refdes but I remember it being bad enough I immediately added machinery =
to my setup so it couldn't happen again.
You can detect these with gnet-drc2, although it=92ll complain about a =
lot of things it shouldn=92t. That=92s a fine illustration of the =
problem of developers making assumptions about how users will use the =
tool. Gnet-drc2 makes many unreasonable assumptions. The good news is =
that gnet-drc2 is only an advisor, so you can ignore it when it=92s =
wrong. It would be catastrophic if we forced this stuff on people.
> Perhaps the sane behavior should be the default, and "power users" =
that want something else can disable it.
>=20
The trouble with this kind of thing is that it=92s often hard to =
completely disable. Developers make unwarranted assumptions. It=92s =
better to have it as an optional script. It might be nice to have a =
gnetlist -m script to work with the tamer back ends in one pass for =
straightforward designs.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
jpd AT noqsi DOT com
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On Oct 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Britton =
Kerin (<a =
href=3D"mailto:britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com">britton DOT kerin AT gmail DOT com</a>) =
[via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>] =
<<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 5:41 PM, John Doty <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com" =
target=3D"_blank">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
On Oct 19, 2015, at 5:40 PM, DJ Delorie <<a =
href=3D"mailto:dj AT delorie DOT com">dj AT delorie DOT com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
>>> My sample schematic would have U1-1 and U1-1.<br>
>><br>
>> So you don't really have a refdes to start from: it doesn't =
identify<br>
>> the component.<br>
><br>
> Wordplay. It has a refdes. It's not unique. We do =
this all the time<br>
> for slotted and multi-sym parts.<br>
><br>
> And that reference was to show how easy it is for a user to<br>
> instantiate symbols that don't have a unique identity, a problem =
you<br>
> still haven't addressed.<br>
<br>
</span>It=92s easy to do all kinds of dysfunctional things with a power =
tool. To reliably prevent dysfunction, you have to take away the =
power.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"">You sound like a =
surgeon resisting a checklist. =
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Not at all. I=92m =
one of the minority who use gnet-drc2 despite its =
flaws.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
style=3D""> "Sure I sometimes take out the wrong kidney, BFD I'm =
smart I don't need that". Power tools shouldn't gratuitously force =
you to remember things a competent tool can easily remember for =
you.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>And the toolkit =
should have a way to *advise* you. Not *force* you to conform, as DJ =
wants.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you know how to tell a valid Switcap =
schematic from an invalid one? Neither do I. Who=92s to =
say?</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D""> =
If refdes aren't gonna be unique then some other thing should exist =
that makes obviously distinct symbols =
unique.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes. And =
since gschem doesn=92t have complete knowledge of the environment in =
which the schematic page will be used, it can=92t be the =
enforcer.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
style=3D""> I don't remember what ugly thing gEDA did to me with =
duplicate refdes but I remember it being bad enough I immediately added =
machinery to my setup so it couldn't happen =
again.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>You can detect =
these with gnet-drc2, although it=92ll complain about a lot of things it =
shouldn=92t. That=92s a fine illustration of the problem of developers =
making assumptions about how users will use the tool. Gnet-drc2 makes =
many unreasonable assumptions. The good news is that gnet-drc2 is only =
an advisor, so you can ignore it when it=92s wrong. It would be =
catastrophic if we forced this stuff on =
people.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D""> =
Perhaps the sane behavior should be the default, and "power users" that =
want something else can disable =
it.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote><br></div><div>The trouble with this kind of thing is that =
it=92s often hard to completely disable. Developers make unwarranted =
assumptions. It=92s better to have it as an optional script. It might be =
nice to have a gnetlist -m script to work with the tamer back ends in =
one pass for straightforward designs.</div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><p style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">John Doty<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"> <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Noqsi =
Aerospace, Ltd.</font></p><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px"><a href=3D"http://www.noqsi.com/">http://www.noqsi.com/</a></p><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jpd AT noqsi DOT com">jpd AT noqsi DOT com</a></font></p><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br></body></html>=
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