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Date:	Tue, 6 Oct 2015 05:34:23 +0200 (CEST)
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To:	"Dave McGuire (mcguire AT neurotica DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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From:	gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu
Subject:	Re: [geda-user] GTK3, Glade interface designer (router, auto?)
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On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Dave McGuire (mcguire AT neurotica DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:

> On 10/05/2015 10:46 PM, gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu wrote:
>> On my poll the actual users who really voted made scripting win. If you
>> look at the list traffic this summer, you will see that a considerable
>> amount of text was pro or contra guile/scheme in gschem.
>>
>> The _real_ user base also installs binaries from their distro's
>> repository. They are also not subscribed to this list or if they are,
>> they almost never speak up. They don't care about forks, branches, they
>> install whatever their distro has.
>>
>> On this list we have mostly power users who has already forked or have
>> their own branch in git, or stuck with a specific past vesion of the
>> official stuff or using the head version. They happily comment ideas and
>> mails after reading only 1/3 of the text.
>>
>> If anyone does anything new in a fork or branch or whervere that doesn't
>> end up instanty in the head or in distros, there will be no more than 2
>> people on the list who actually download, compile, try and _then_
>> comment the stuff. If you disagree, prove me wrong by prividing a list
>> of links to the recent list archives.
>>
>> What geda, pcb, pcb-rnd, xorn, and other related projects don't have is
>> a small, but active user base who are willing to try experimental code
>> and provide feedback according to the actual tests, not according to
>> reading mails.
>>
>> Considering these, the best we can do is to ask the list as I did and
>> then believe the results, whatever they are. What you do, telling us
>> what the user base don't care about, is mere speculation - you don't
>> have more access to the real opinion of the actual user base than any of
>> us. You can share your own opinion and assume the user base has the same
>> opinion. This is not better than a poll in any way.
>
>  Well, considering the fact that I use gEDA and PCB nearly every day,
> *I* am the user base.  And to watch the traffic around here, I'm the
> only guy busy actually USING this stuff!

I am an user too in that sense. Britton too. We both say scripting is 
good, so you are losing this by rate 2:1.

When I did that poll, others voted for scripting too. If I get it right, 
you say those opinions do not matter. I was wondering why do you think so: 
are those not users? Is your opinion worth more than other users' opinion? 
Did you do another poll and you have more representative data?

>
>  This project has gyrated into inaction, and this recent ****storm of
> traffic hasn't improved anything.  There have been childish turf wars,
> YET MORE forks, whining babies who can't seem to wrap their little
> brains around what has to be one of the simplest programming languages
> ever developed, and whining grownups who insist that nothing should ever
> change, for any reason, until the end of time.  And yet more
> inexplicable blather about Windows support!

Again, speaking as an user: it did improve a lot of things for me. After 
this summer I do have more than 5 features that I was missing for years. 
Now they are there and I use them.

The most thing that did the improvement was sitting down and coding. 
Mailing list traffic was ~95% useless weaste of bandwidth but the 
remaining small portion helped.

I am trying to point out that you are doing exactly what you were 
talking against: write emails about your own personal preferences, or 
even, about denying needs/preferences of other users, while not 
improving the project in any way.

>
>  SO yes, I'll speculate, I'll be a user, and I'll give you feedback AS
> a user.  But you've just proven that you're not interested in that
> feedback, surprisingly enough.  So I guess I'll just sit back and watch
> as people argue and create forks.

I'm fine with you being one of the users. One. Not more. Did you vote in 
my poll? No. Is your opinion worth more than the opinion of any other 
user? No.

And no, I don't doubt your right to come and complain about opinions of 
other users.

Regards,

Igor2

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