Mail Archives: geda-user/2015/04/02/12:41:23
--001a114214709e94860512c07f81
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Anarchy doesn't mean chaos. It means *voluntary* organization. Encouraging
chaos because you dislike hierarchy is simply the wrong way to go about it.
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 12:30 PM, <gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Apr 2015, Russell Nelson wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:29 AM, <gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu> wrote:
>>
>> BTW, all my symbols are GPL'd and are publicly accessible. It just
>> happens that they are not hosted on gedasymbols.org.
>>
>>
>> How might I find them? I could imagine a web page that has links to
>>
>
> Sure: svn://repo.hu/openhw/projects/lib/trunk
>
> Feel free to link it from whatever symbol/fp directory page.
>
> repositories, but ... why not just combine them all on gedasymbols? It's
>> not
>> like you lose control or attribution.
>>
>
> It's that I prefer to use svn over cvs or git and I have a great system on
> repo.hu that does a lot of administration automtically, triggered by
> simple svn commits I'd do normally. For example updating the web page on a
> repo.hu project is commiting in the directory the project has configured
> as web root.
>
> By switching to gedasymbols.org I'd lose these features, so it is not
> worth for me. Other users prefer DVCS (git or hg) and find CVS a constant
> fight.
>
> There is simply no one perfect solution that suits everyone. It's not only
> how symbols/footprints are, this why we have different EDA tools, libc
> implementations and operating systems out there. I find this valubale as it
> provides more choices to the user.
>
>
>
>
>> What displeases me about your proposal is this: if I understood
>> you correctly, gedasymbols would be an integral part of the
>> tools. They would be coupled so tightly that I wouldn't have the
>> option not to use gedasymbols.org. I wouldn't have the option to
>> maintain my own private or public libs hosted elsewhere under
>> GPL or other license. I would be forced to license my libs under
>> the GPL and automatically share them. It'd be unreasonable and
>> unacceptable restrictions on how I'd use a free software. You
>> would remove the ability that users can chose how to use
>> something because you believe you have a better way that should
>> be forced on everyone.
>>
>>
>> My bad! I shouldn't have combined those two ideas, because they are
>> sharply
>> severable. Let me describe them separated:
>>
>> Problem: people don't find parts in the shipped library, so they create
>> new
>> parts that probably are already in gedasymbols.
>> Solution: ship a copy of gedasymbols as the library and provide a way to
>> keep it up to date.
>>
>
> Yup, that could work.
>
> We had a long discussion on this mailing list a few days ago about this.
> My opinion is that instead of trying to ship a huge library with all
> components available, we should (by default) ship a small one that helps
> the user learn the tool quickly then provide tools/methods that he can
> download symbols/fps easily.
>
> Drawbacks of one huge collection: just check the current stock lib: it's
> eclectic. A lot of random "someone once needed this" parts. Beyond a
> certain size, no matter how good your organization is, a beginner will get
> scared of the sheer number of components he thinks he would never need.
> Also, maintenance.... Let's face it: geda does not feature a dev group of
> many people with lot of free time... If there's a small lib shipped, it has
> some chance to be maintained long term.
>
>
>> Problem: people create parts that aren't in gedasymbols, and don't
>> contribute them back.
>>
>
> I don't find this a problem. Gedasymbols is not _the_ way
> symbols/footprints should be distributed. It's one of the ways. I have
> another way and perhaps other users have their ways too. Encouraging people
> to share their stuff is a good idea. Encouraging them to use a specific
> service you prefer is still okay. Not accepting that some people find other
> services better is not that good.
>
> Allowing people to have their choices ineviatbly leads to the situation
> that there will be multiple different hosts serving different libs -
> overlaps, gaps, redundancies, etc. This is not a problem or bug, and we
> don't need to fix it.
>
> There are things that can be made better, like how such random hosted
> library chunks can be found, indexed, searched, or even collected and
> distributed as a whole, if someone needs that.
>
> Think of how free software and free operating systems work: noone says all
> development must happen on a single source hosting service. People host
> their software wherever, and users are free to roam and collect them. Some
> people make large collections (Linux distributions or BSD variants for
> example) and work hard to make all the random pieces work together. Most
> end users will pick one of these collections instead of building their own
> from scratch - without losing the ability to still do that, if they want
> (this is how new distributions start).
>
> Solution: give them a public and a private symbol/fp folder. When they
>> update gedasymbols, publish the public folder back to gedasymbols.
>>
>
> Yes, as for the encouraging part: giving them access to a specific service
> and making it easy for them to contribute is always good. Just don't think
> everyone must or even should use the same service (or software or brand -
> variety is a generic idea).
>
> Regards,
>
> Igor2
--001a114214709e94860512c07f81
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Anarchy doesn't mean chaos. It means *voluntary* organ=
ization. Encouraging chaos because you dislike hierarchy is simply the wron=
g way to go about it.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 12:30 PM, <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu" target=3D"_blank">gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
<br>
On Thu, 2 Apr 2015, Russell Nelson wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:29 AM, <<a href=3D"mailto:gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu"=
target=3D"_blank">gedau AT igor2 DOT repo DOT hu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
BTW, all my symbols are GPL'd and are publicly accessible. It just<br>
happens that they are not hosted on <a href=3D"http://gedasymbols.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">gedasymbols.org</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
How might I find them? I could imagine a web page that has links to<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Sure: svn://<a href=3D"http://repo.hu/openhw/projects/lib/trunk" target=3D"=
_blank">repo.hu/openhw/projects/<u></u>lib/trunk</a><br>
<br>
Feel free to link it from whatever symbol/fp directory page.<span class=3D"=
"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
repositories, but ... why not just combine them all on gedasymbols? It'=
s not<br>
like you lose control or attribution.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
It's that I prefer to use svn over cvs or git and I have a great system=
on <a href=3D"http://repo.hu" target=3D"_blank">repo.hu</a> that does a lo=
t of administration automtically, triggered by simple svn commits I'd d=
o normally. For example updating the web page on a <a href=3D"http://repo.h=
u" target=3D"_blank">repo.hu</a> project is commiting in the directory the =
project has configured as web root.<br>
<br>
By switching to <a href=3D"http://gedasymbols.org" target=3D"_blank">gedasy=
mbols.org</a> I'd lose these features, so it is not worth for me. Other=
users prefer DVCS (git or hg) and find CVS a constant fight.<br>
<br>
There is simply no one perfect solution that suits everyone. It's not o=
nly how symbols/footprints are, this why we have different EDA tools, libc =
implementations and operating systems out there. I find this valubale as it=
provides more choices to the user.<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What displeases me about your proposal is this: if I un=
derstood<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you correctly, gedasymbols would be an integral part of=
the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tools. They would be coupled so tightly that I wouldn&#=
39;t have the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0option not to use <a href=3D"http://gedasymbols.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gedasymbols.org</a>. I wouldn't have the option to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maintain my own private or public libs hosted elsewhere=
under<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0GPL or other license. I would be forced to license my l=
ibs under<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the GPL and automatically share them. It'd be unrea=
sonable and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unacceptable restrictions on how I'd use a free sof=
tware. You<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would remove the ability that users can chose how to us=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something because you believe you have a better way tha=
t should<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be forced on everyone.<br>
<br>
<br>
My bad! I shouldn't have combined those two ideas, because they are sha=
rply<br>
severable. Let me describe them separated:<br>
<br>
Problem: people don't find parts in the shipped library, so they create=
new<br>
parts that probably are already in gedasymbols.<br>
Solution: ship a copy of gedasymbols as the library and provide a way to<br=
>
keep it up to date.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yup, that could work.<br>
<br>
We had a long discussion on this mailing list a few days ago about this. My=
opinion is that instead of trying to ship a huge library with all componen=
ts available, we should (by default) ship a small one that helps the user l=
earn the tool quickly then provide tools/methods that he can download symbo=
ls/fps easily.<br>
<br>
Drawbacks of one huge collection: just check the current stock lib: it'=
s eclectic. A lot of random "someone once needed this" parts. Bey=
ond a certain size, no matter how good your organization is, a beginner wil=
l get scared of the sheer number of components he thinks he would never nee=
d. Also, maintenance.... Let's face it: geda does not feature a dev gro=
up of many people with lot of free time... If there's a small lib shipp=
ed, it has some chance to be maintained long term.<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Problem: people create parts that aren't in gedasymbols, and don't<=
br>
contribute them back.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I don't find this a problem. Gedasymbols is not _the_ way symbols/footp=
rints should be distributed. It's one of the ways. I have another way a=
nd perhaps other users have their ways too. Encouraging people to share the=
ir stuff is a good idea. Encouraging them to use a specific service you pre=
fer is still okay. Not accepting that some people find other services bette=
r is not that good.<br>
<br>
Allowing people to have their choices ineviatbly leads to the situation tha=
t there will be multiple different hosts serving different libs - overlaps,=
gaps, redundancies, etc. This is not a problem or bug, and we don't ne=
ed to fix it.<br>
<br>
There are things that can be made better, like how such random hosted libra=
ry chunks can be found, indexed, searched, or even collected and distribute=
d as a whole, if someone needs that.<br>
<br>
Think of how free software and free operating systems work: noone says all =
development must happen on a single source hosting service. People host the=
ir software wherever, and users are free to roam and collect them. Some peo=
ple make large collections (Linux distributions or BSD variants for example=
) and work hard to make all the random pieces work together. Most end users=
will pick one of these collections instead of building their own from scra=
tch - without losing the ability to still do that, if they want (this is ho=
w new distributions start).<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Solution: give them a public and a private symbol/fp folder. When they<br>
update gedasymbols, publish the public folder back to gedasymbols.=C2=A0<br=
>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yes, as for the encouraging part: giving them access to a specific service =
and making it easy for them to contribute is always good. Just don't th=
ink everyone must or even should use the same service (or software or brand=
- variety is a generic idea).<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Igor2</blockquote></div><br></div>
--001a114214709e94860512c07f81--
- Raw text -