X-Authentication-Warning:	delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-help-bounces using -f
X-Recipient:	geda-help AT delorie DOT com
X-Original-DKIM-Signature:	v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
	h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references
	:mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding
	:in-reply-to:user-agent;
	bh=FTkYxXHxZXxnkHoT7wPgnngvtAeoViNgjMov2oF6qK8=;
	b=NfdaYqIM6/sflmKZPevoQW2aNpJP7jJUBCYb4nC3r0L/4FIJPa/kqgCoAJ5klr4Pek
	EQRdVjaIADMQLW8nYk67e5Rua5LsL/1GhM0oC9baoYv9A1b7o6ES/7zxOOaWqY1Tm00t
	lazSC5n+Il2pQyHFVuH6mWTEfbq0+ygyIbrf/1ymDa+Q8Ni404eL7GCCY/iaaQhcfPaD
	sEkjqoiem6XOgYkp5lQ6JClQHuakRpAzWFEj6Dp6jM8v6uaqnCJaVQLRW8QY9pVQmpGC
	b25vk8lMLTcmZVk7GSmggsiVADTj4mT/W4d3BGb8/g0DzvPxAe13p+GP1uUQIqAzO49W
	W2Hw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature:	v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to
	:references:mime-version:content-disposition
	:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:user-agent;
	bh=FTkYxXHxZXxnkHoT7wPgnngvtAeoViNgjMov2oF6qK8=;
	b=i+8mAKozYjndqRb/QddkFkC84TZ10aGjznB5tYavOGQVLtP6eC67ujWtEvmFAZiBEh
	nOhzVNLcdRu4g2IT6E4uM40+WPhel2gxaIw6+nFo7Io48gi8NAbiQW/sVaspph6gOZBr
	6/uz2E5sD1RK5R9Bje8sAVVutscA6zdgyG5B6f/bTqkVwG1sTG/3Yryd3tpH+27w37Ws
	6iueJRm9WZrvZvoJYPF0HSQLLC6fEaarzwVsNvtEWmTSdmZpXFcqy44Ce7PR5OzF2BJ9
	W49eto1v8QQ5sjh50TnaoT4/YFQxI3D5QWhByU0NJTIWl8p+m+tRb08i1dAc5YUQprWD
	E4Qg==
X-Gm-Message-State:	AOAM532pAPS0DAlEWsm1/NwqgGtPjArONXWSqOe6rra9q5JWYar/LGds
	IGgiG+3NIlF94bO6z/TifvFm5fT/Ioo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source:	ABdhPJzNnkJpzAgojH2Vq6A+ofl+eveNzvZTlVMU0QheFY+L8Pfhly5nd5SoCum0pwjkmdy42wNpsw==
X-Received:	by 2002:a19:7006:: with SMTP id h6mr900759lfc.83.1599230732563;
	Fri, 04 Sep 2020 07:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 2020 17:45:00 +0300
From:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-help AT delorie DOT com>
To:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-help AT delorie DOT com>
Subject:	Re: [geda-help] Linux
Message-ID:	<20200904144500.GB3459@newvzh.lokolhoz>
Mail-Followup-To:	"Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-help AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-help AT delorie DOT com>
References:	<664de6c2-ad96-8298-1b64-ad550acfca64 AT k4gvo DOT com>
	<CAMw9acAxLN+NU0cbmTfPFHrYyFmvMkAdpyPuaDBzd8S9HaTN7Q AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
	<20200901193434 DOT GB19839 AT newvzh DOT lokolhoz>
	<CAMw9acBo6uMTgS-Sp24aVxq+y8d9XXC+RTHJTJY23rquzm+Fmw AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
	<20200902141116 DOT GA2911 AT newvzh DOT lokolhoz>
	<CAMw9acCQV0WTSERpeM=AHj3+p1ACe7Me--4f8xMc000Fs+j7OA AT mail DOT gmail DOT com>
	<20200902165424 DOT GB2911 AT newvzh DOT lokolhoz>
	<333FD0E9-238C-445F-AEE4-850B0EA19A88 AT ece DOT orst DOT edu>
	<20200903200239 DOT GD8483 AT newvzh DOT lokolhoz>
	<alpine DOT DEB DOT 2 DOT 21 DOT 2009040001340 DOT 4145 AT nimbus>
MIME-Version:	1.0
In-Reply-To:	<alpine.DEB.2.21.2009040001340.4145@nimbus>
User-Agent:	Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13)
Note-from-DJ:	This may be spam
Reply-To:	geda-help AT delorie DOT com
Errors-To:	nobody AT delorie DOT com
X-Mailing-List:	geda-help AT delorie DOT com
X-Unsubscribes-To:	listserv AT delorie DOT com

Hi Roland,

On Fri, Sep 04, 2020 at 12:59:11AM +0200, Roland Lutz wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020, Vladimir Zhbanov (vzhbanov AT gmail DOT com) [via
> geda-help AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
> > The third [motivation] was restricting of introducing of third party
> > code written in whichever language in order to maintain code base
> > maintainable given what man-power we had all the time :-)
> 
> The use of Python in gEDA/gaf was preceded by an extensive discussion about
> the advantages and disadvantages of various languages in question.

Most of the Python tools were ('are' in geda-gaf) useless simple
tools working directly with gEDA's file format, they didn't use
any libgeda's functionality, were not maintained, and some of them
were broken back in 2009 when I joined the project.  The same with
most contributed bash/Perl/whatever utilities.  We've mostly fixed
this in Lepton.


> Besides that – given the amount of work I had already done at that point and
> the fact that I obviously cared about the code I contributed, how can you
> now claim this was ever about the question of it being maintained?


Maintaining of the project assumes maintaining its ports for
various distributions.  Nowadays, many linux distributions throw
out Guile 1.x (even Guile 2.0) and Python 2.x.  At the point you
included your xorn into geda-gaf, nobody wanted to deal with such
a huge mess of code (which, despite of your care, crashed every
now and then on my system) and release new versions.  Hopefully,
we've changed the situation in Lepton, of which, AFAICS, you use
quite a little bit of fixes ;-) This is normal for competition, I
think.  However, as I see it, it was always so: someone did hard
work on C, fixed bugs, wrote new code, etc. while some others
played with their lovely toys :-)

...


> > Lepton has no issues with obsolete Guile and Python versions

> CPython 3 uses a different extension API than CPython 2.  While I could go
> through the extension code, manually updating it to the new API, I believe
> it is far better to migrate to an implementation-agnostic API like
> PyPy/cffi.  As far as I know, this hasn't been done for a project like
> gEDA/gaf before, so I have to overcome some new kinds of problems.
> 
> (If anyone who knows their way around PyPy/cffi is reading this, please feel
> free to join the effort!)

Guile itself uses 'libffi' for quite some time. AFAIK, the library
'libffi' supports Python as well.  It's the way of Lepton:
separate C and Scheme code instead of introducing new
dependencies.  (Moreover, Guile itself supports several languages
in a nutshell.  Besides, there are also such third-party projects
as 'python-on-guile', for example :-))


All,

I don't want to re-iterate old flame wars in gEDA, which already
led to migration of many users to other tools.  Hopefully, it will
be my last reply in this thread.  Please ask me privately if you
want to make clear some points.

-- 
  Vladimir

(λ)επτόν EDA — https://github.com/lepton-eda

- Raw text -