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Mail Archives: djgpp/2005/10/13/12:17:18

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From: Sterten AT aol DOT com
Message-ID: <66.61655516.307fdfa3@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:04:51 EDT
Subject: Re: smallest set of files needed
To: djgpp AT delorie DOT com
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Reply-To: djgpp AT delorie DOT com

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>> But it's clear now, that GCC/DJGPP is not a good choice to  do
>> this.
>Why?  Too big?
 
too big, too many files, too complicated the installation,
too difficult  to explain to someone who is not a programmer.
 
 >> So, is there another compiler which someone can recommend  for this
>> purpose ?
>
>Okay, I'll list  the reduced files for OpenWATCOM.  I'm not sure if
>it is  really any smaller...
>
>> (easy to install, handles  basic C-commands, few and short  files,
>>compatible,
>>  free from  copyright/license etc.)
>
>I have yet to see a Public  Domain C compiler.  Everything has some
>type of  restriction...  And, if it doesn't, it is usually  too
>incomplete to be useful.
 
C is the most standard language, I think. Used for most  University
research. Lots of software has been written in C. So we should  have
this compiler already. It should even be included in the OS.
If it  isn't there, then something must be wrong with the
whole computer busyness.  (IMO)
 
 >> I would even accept if only a subset of C-commands is  compiled
>> and speed is not so  important.
>
>You can also use CIL (C Intermediate  Language) (link below) to
>simplify C code as much as you  want.  CIL is a C to C "translator"
>used to eliminate coding  errors but also reduces complexity and
>posix code to simpler  code.
>
>>But it should have good  compatibility
>> with GCC/DJGPP.
>
>Not  likely, due to POSIX, unless you switch to Linux.  There  are
>alot of simple C compilers for Linux e.g., TCC by F. Bellard  (links
>below).
 
I don't know about Linux. Maybe it was a mistake not to choose Linux
in  the first place, but now I'm too lazy to change.
 
 >Sincerely,
>
>Rod  Pemberton
>
>
>To use the reduced file sets  for WATCOM, you'll need to put these
>in a .bat file and run  it:
>SET WATCOM=C:\WATCOM
>SET  EDPATH=C:\WATCOM\EDDAT
>SET  INCLUDE=C:\WATCOM\H;C:\WATCOM\H\NT
>
>A minimal set of  files for DOS RM  OpenWATCOM:
>C:\watcom\binw\wcc.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wcl.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wlink.lnk
>C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk
>C:\watcom\binw\wstub.exe
>C:\watcom\h\*.h
>C:\watcom\h\sys\*.h
>C:\watcom\lib286\dos\clibs.lib
>C:\watcom\lib286\dos\emu87.lib
>C:\watcom\lib286\dos\graph.lib
>C:\watcom\lib286\math87s.lib
>
>A  minimal set of files for DOS PM  OpenWATCOM:
>C:\watcom\binw\wcc386.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wcl386.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe
>C:\watcom\binw\wlink.lnk
>C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk
>C:\watcom\binw\wstub.exe
>C:\watcom\h\*.h
>C:\watcom\h\sys\*.h
>C:\watcom\lib386\dos\clib3r.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\dos\clib3s.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\dos\emu387.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\dos\graph.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\math387r.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\math387s.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\math3r.lib
>C:\watcom\lib386\math3s.lib
 
why don't they put these into one file ?
 
 >Simple C compilers for DOS:
>
>smallC86  and smc88dos from  here:
>http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/download/
 
link doesn't work
 
 >smc386c will could easily be retargetd to tasm,  etc...
>http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~vitchev/smallc-i386.html
 
smc386c.c doesn't compile with gcc3.2
 
 >CIL (C Intermediate Language)
>CIL (C Intermediate  Language)  _http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/_ 
(http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/) 
 
no compiler. And tons of documentation to read
 
 >There is some limited 16bit support for  DJGPP
>
>DJGPP's gcc patches/djlink/nasm
 
link doesn't work
 
 >http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/djlink/
 
I don't understand this. What is it ? And it seems that you need
a  compiler anyway.
 
 >http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/
 
"This is not for the average programmer. This stuff does not  install
easily and doesn't work well yet! Don't use unless you are  prepared
to fix any bugs you find yourself."
 
 >Simple C compilers floating around the internet that should  compile
>for Linux:
 
no Linux
 
 >Small C by Ron Cain (large number of  microprocessors)
>FBCC and TCC by Fabrice Bellard
>BCC  by Bruce Evans (from ELKS)
>Linux's Dev86 (from  ELKS)
>OXCC C Compiler by Norman Culver
>PCC by C Ware  Corporation
>Pacific C by Hitech Soft
>Amsterdam  Compiler Kit
>Micro C by Dave Dunfield
>OSD (includes C  compiler) by Chris Giese
 
 
 

Wouldn't it be nice if programmers could attach their source  and
their compiler to the executables and people could easily edit
the  executable - even non-programmers (e.g. output commands or
other simple  things).
And then the changed executable could be run to recompile itself  ?
 

Imagine this newsgroup-dialogue : 
Q:
>can I change the  size of the monster in the upper right corner
> in level 7 of game  xyz ?
A:
> load xyz.exe into your editor and replace the 5 in  line 745 by an 8 
> and then recompile by running "xyz  -compile".  xyz.exe will change itself
> with the new monster  included. You can recover the old version, 
> "xyz -old"
 
 
 
-Guenter.

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<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; But it's clear now, that GCC/DJGPP is not a good choice=20=
to=20
do<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; this.<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Why?&nbsp; Too big?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>too big, too many files, too complicated the installation,<BR>too diffi=
cult=20
to explain to someone who is not a programmer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; So, is there another compiler which someone can recommen=
d=20
for this<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; purpose ?<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Okay, I'll l=
ist=20
the reduced files for OpenWATCOM.&nbsp; I'm not sure if<BR>&nbsp;&gt;it is=20
really any smaller...<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; (easy to install, hand=
les=20
basic C-commands, few and short=20
files,<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt;compatible,<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; free from=20
copyright/license etc.)<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;I have yet to see a Publi=
c=20
Domain C compiler.&nbsp; Everything has some<BR>&nbsp;&gt;type of=20
restriction...&nbsp; And, if it doesn't, it is usually=20
too<BR>&nbsp;&gt;incomplete to be useful.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>C is the most standard language, I think. Used for most=20
University<BR>research. Lots of software has been written in C. So we should=
=20
have<BR>this compiler already. It should even be included in the OS.<BR>If i=
t=20
isn't there, then something must be wrong with the<BR>whole computer busynes=
s.=20
(IMO)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; I would even accept if only a subset of C-commands is=20
compiled<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; and speed is not so=20
important.<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;You can also use CIL (C Intermediate=20
Language) (link below) to<BR>&nbsp;&gt;simplify C code as much as you=20
want.&nbsp; CIL is a C to C "translator"<BR>&nbsp;&gt;used to eliminate codi=
ng=20
errors but also reduces complexity and<BR>&nbsp;&gt;posix code to simpler=20
code.<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt;But it should have good=20
compatibility<BR>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; with GCC/DJGPP.<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;N=
ot=20
likely, due to POSIX, unless you switch to Linux.&nbsp; There=20
are<BR>&nbsp;&gt;alot of simple C compilers for Linux e.g., TCC by F. Bellar=
d=20
(links<BR>&nbsp;&gt;below).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I don't know about Linux. Maybe it was a mistake not to choose Linux<BR=
>in=20
the first place, but now I'm too lazy to change.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;Sincerely,<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Rod=20
Pemberton<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;To use the reduced file s=
ets=20
for WATCOM, you'll need to put these<BR>&nbsp;&gt;in a .bat file and run=20
it:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;SET WATCOM=3DC:\WATCOM<BR>&nbsp;&gt;SET=20
EDPATH=3DC:\WATCOM\EDDAT<BR>&nbsp;&gt;SET=20
INCLUDE=3DC:\WATCOM\H;C:\WATCOM\H\NT<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;A minimal se=
t of=20
files for DOS RM=20
OpenWATCOM:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wcc.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\=
wcl.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wl=
ink.lnk<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw=
\wstub.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\h\*.h<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\h\sys\*.h<BR>=
&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib286\dos\clibs.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib286\dos\e=
mu87.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib286\dos\graph.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\=
lib286\math87s.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;A=20
minimal set of files for DOS PM=20
OpenWATCOM:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wcc386.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\bi=
nw\wcl386.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wlink.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\b=
inw\wlink.lnk<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\binw\wlsystem.lnk<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watco=
m\binw\wstub.exe<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\h\*.h<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\h\sys\*=
.h<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\dos\clib3r.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib38=
6\dos\clib3s.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\dos\emu387.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C=
:\watcom\lib386\dos\graph.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\math387r.lib<BR>=
&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\math387s.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\math3r=
.lib<BR>&nbsp;&gt;C:\watcom\lib386\math3s.lib</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>why don't they put these into one file ?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;Simple C compilers for DOS:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;smallC=
86=20
and smc88dos from=20
here:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/downlo=
ad/</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>link doesn't work</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;smc386c will could easily be retargetd to tasm,=20
etc...<BR>&nbsp;&gt;http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~vitchev/smallc-i386.html=
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>smc386c.c doesn't compile with gcc3.2</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;CIL (C Intermediate Language)<BR>&nbsp;&gt;CIL (C Intermediat=
e=20
Language)&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/">http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/=
</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>no compiler. And tons of documentation to read</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;There is some limited 16bit support for=20
DJGPP<BR>&nbsp;&gt;<BR>&nbsp;&gt;DJGPP's gcc patches/djlink/nasm</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>link doesn't work</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/djlink/</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I don't understand this. What is it ? And it seems that you need<BR>a=20
compiler anyway.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"This is not for the average programmer. This stuff does not=20
install<BR>&nbsp; easily and doesn't work well yet! Don't use unless you are=
=20
prepared<BR>&nbsp; to fix any bugs you find yourself."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;Simple C compilers floating around the internet that should=20
compile<BR>&nbsp;&gt;for Linux:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>no Linux</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&gt;Small C by Ron Cain (large number of=20
microprocessors)<BR>&nbsp;&gt;FBCC and TCC by Fabrice Bellard<BR>&nbsp;&gt;B=
CC=20
by Bruce Evans (from ELKS)<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Linux's Dev86 (from=20
ELKS)<BR>&nbsp;&gt;OXCC C Compiler by Norman Culver<BR>&nbsp;&gt;PCC by C Wa=
re=20
Corporation<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Pacific C by Hitech Soft<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Amsterdam=20
Compiler Kit<BR>&nbsp;&gt;Micro C by Dave Dunfield<BR>&nbsp;&gt;OSD (include=
s C=20
compiler) by Chris Giese</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Wouldn't it be nice if programmers could attach their source=20
and<BR>their compiler to the executables and people could easily edit<BR>the=
=20
executable - even non-programmers (e.g. output commands or<BR>other simple=20
things).<BR>And then the changed executable could be run to recompile itself=
=20
?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Imagine this newsgroup-dialogue : <BR>Q:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;can I change=20=
the=20
size of the monster in the upper right corner<BR>&nbsp;&gt; in level 7 of ga=
me=20
xyz ?<BR>A:<BR>&nbsp;&gt; load xyz.exe into your editor and replace the 5 in=
=20
line 745 by an 8 <BR>&nbsp;&gt; and then recompile by running "xyz=20
-compile".&nbsp; xyz.exe will change itself<BR>&nbsp;&gt; with the new monst=
er=20
included. You can recover the old version, <BR>&nbsp;&gt; "xyz -old"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>-Guenter.</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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