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Subject:	Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: g++ and c++17 filesystem
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From: Jonathan Yong <10walls AT gmail DOT com>
To: sten DOT kristian DOT ivarsson AT gmail DOT com,
 'The Cygwin Mailing List' <cygwin AT cygwin DOT com>
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Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: Sv: g++ and c++17 filesystem
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On 11/24/20 2:01 PM, sten DOT kristian DOT ivarsson AT gmail DOT com wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> std::filesystem POSIX mode is common to all POSIX platforms where
>>>> backslashes are NOT directory separators. How do you make them accep=
t
>>>> your demands? How are you going to force POSIX platforms allow
>>>> Windows specific code?
>>>
>>> I've been trying to say over and over again that our code doesn't
>>> handle any Windows specific stuff and not anywhere have I claimed tha=
t
>>> anyone else need to handle Windows specific stuff either (except for
>>> the internals of Cygwin of which Windows specific logic is already
>>> present)
>>>
>>> I repeat; I don't expect any of the Cygwin-Posix-functions to accept
>>> any Windows-style-paths (though some of them, as I repeatedly have
>>> said, already does so) and I only expect that I can operate according=

>>> to the C++-standard on an instantiated std::filesystem::path
>>>
>>
>> How do you expect std::filesystem to do that when Windows paths are no=
t
>> even accepted in API calls?
>=20
> What API-calls ? Cygwin-Posix-API-calls ? If so, you assume that std::f=
ilesystem in Cygwin must be implemented using the underlaying Cygwin-Posi=
x-API and maybe it must be of some reason, but I guess it even would be p=
ossible to make it the other way around, i.e. quite a bunch of the Cygwin=
-Posix-file-API-functions could be implemented by using some native std::=
filesystem-implementation such as MinGW but I guess that not the whole Cy=
gwin-Posix-file-API could be implemented that way and it would probably b=
e some quite substantial rewrite of things that probably is not worth the=
 effort, but what I'm trying to say is that std::filesystem shipped with =
Cygwin not necessarily have to be implemented totally with the underlayin=
g Cygwin-Posix-API. It could be a mix to use whatever is appropriate and =
in some circumstances some logic is needed to understand both kind of pat=
hs
>=20
>=20
> See more below
>=20
>=20
>=20

No, std::filesystem runs on top of Cygwin, not under it, it would have=20
to use POSIX APIs to get anything done. GCC is not the platform system=20
library.

>>>> Make it try to enter subdirectories every time std::filesystem is
>>>> called?
>>>>
>>>> You refuse to understand that Cygwin is NOT Windows, it is a POSIX
>>>> platform. Using Cygwin means complying with POSIX expectations and
>>>> standards.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how this conversation can continue if you still refuse t=
o
>>>> see Cygwin as something separate from Windows. Besides, you have
>>>> already answered your question by ruling out MinGW, so Microsoft
>>>> Visual Studio it is.
>>>
>>> I repeat (again); neither MinGW/MSVS is an option because we're tryin=
g
>>> to use Posix and C++
>>>
>>> Just to be clear:
>>>
>>> - Our code DOESN'T handle Windows-style-paths explicitly in any way
>>> - We DON'T expect Cygwin-Posix-file-related-functions to accept
>>> Windows-style-paths
>>> - We WOULD like std::filesystem to work according to the C++ ISO
>>> standard
>>
>> Why would std::filesystem be an exception? How would it know if a
>> backslash is part of a name and not a separator? How does it know when=
 to
>> apply exceptions? What about mixed paths?
>=20
> As I've said before, there are already exceptions. Some Cygwin-Posix-me=
chanisms already understands both kinds of path's today
>=20
> How are '\' handled as part of the name today ? I works perfectly well =
in many circumstances, so I guess that there are quite a few exceptions a=
lready
>=20

Its not able to read your mind to find out your intentions, especially=20
when it comes to ambiguous strings like UNC or SMB paths, none of these=20
are remotely POSIX compliant.

>> The C++ standard mentions separators, not specific characters, and the=

>> forward slash is used under Cygwin, not the Windows backslash.
>=20
> Exactly, I haven't stated anything else
>=20

So use the forward slash, not backslash.

>> The bigger question would be how would you expect a Cygwin application=
 to
>> even accept a Windows paths. It should use *nix paths, as all Cygwin
>> programs do
>=20
> Cygwin (and thus applications build within Cygwin) already do accept Wi=
ndows paths here and there as well as std::filesystem
>=20

It does not. There are giant warnings telling you not to rely on it.

> Applications don't have control of all the input that could come from U=
I, environment, configuration, etc
>=20

Garbage in, garbage out. The warnings tell you to use Unix paths.

> What I'm trying to make a point of is that wouldn't it be good if appli=
cations didn't have to care about that, because that is what libraries/fr=
ameworks are for, to give an abstraction ?
>=20
> Otherwise every application have to do something like where ever it han=
dles some path
>=20
> #ifdef _CYGWIN_
>     // fix the path-representation to something with /cygdrive or such
>     ...
> #endif
>=20

Why? Cygwin is a POSIX system. The prefix isn't even necessarily=20
/cygdrive and you're just introducing more complications that falls=20
apart the moment the defaults change.

> This is what we're hoping to avoid to do and that it could be done in t=
he library we're using
>=20
> The exact details of how to implement this and what challenges that wou=
ld be is uninteresting before it could be settled as "Yeah, it would be a=
 good feature to let std::filesystem to be path-style-agnostic"
>=20
> C++ applications do mostly use std::filesystem, std::ofstream, std::ifs=
tream and do not mix that with Posix-file-mechanisms, but for Cygwin, /cy=
gdrive/... in std::filesystem must of course be a valid path as well
>=20
>=20

The C++ standard library APIs are wrappers around the Cygwin APIs like=20
open(3) and write(3), so a Windows path there would still fail. Just=20
because it comes from the C++ standard library, doesn't mean its=20
magically separated from the underlying system.

> I can't stress this enough and point out that this community have alrea=
dy decided to here and there make Cygwin be Windows-style-paths-aware, so=
 I cannot see that it would be that of a bad idea if it became even more =
agnostic to what kind of path is used, but of course I understand it come=
s with some challenges
>=20

No, Windows paths are not supported, merely working as a side effect.=20
Are you going to demand POSIX compliant scripts to also handle Windows=20
paths next?

>=20
> p.s.
>=20
>     We do have an open source product targeting the *nix-world as well =
and at the same time we're trying to make it runnable on Windows, so this=
 is not just me be being stubborn
>=20

But Cygwin is NOT Windows, you still refuse to accept this fact. Cygwin=20
programs have no reason to act as Windows applications, Cygwin programs=20
act like Cygwin programs.

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