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Subject:	Re: native Linux userland in Windows 10
To:	cygwin AT cygwin DOT com
References:	<416uDmm4T7200S05 DOT 1460552179 AT web05 DOT cms DOT usa DOT net> <84CCF5B5-9F11-4541-A527-FD0BD3AE5545 AT etr-usa DOT com> <1117668279 DOT 20160414220758 AT yandex DOT ru> <9B4C5920-2F0F-4D7C-A489-A6329679A1E8 AT etr-usa DOT com> <152468049 DOT 20160415130425 AT yandex DOT ru> <980EF918-9A26-4F02-88D6-53951432B0E4 AT etr-usa DOT com>
From:	David Macek <david DOT macek DOT 0 AT gmail DOT com>
Message-ID:	<5718A3EA.10903@gmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:56:58 +0200
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Note that I'm not necessarily arguing against you in every point you wrote.=
 Some reactions are just notes.

On 21. 4. 2016 0:10, Warren Young wrote:
> One such example is the recent complaint thread about Git=E2=80=99s path =
handling, which wouldn=E2=80=99t even come up under UfW, because it isn=E2=
=80=99t Windows at all.  Git under UfW has exactly the same semantics as un=
der Linux, where presumably the semantics are perfect, since Linux is git=
=E2=80=99s natural environment.
>=20
> Another example is CRLF and UTF-8 handling.  Any program running under Cy=
gwin that bypasses its POSIX interfaces (e.g. calling ReadFile() instead of=
 read(2)) will likely do strange things with LF-terminated UTF-8 text files=
, whereas a UfW binary will always assume LF and UTF-8 (or $LANG, anyway) t=
ext encoding.  Thus, all the hacks in Cygwin and Cygwin-ported executables =
for CRLF workarounds (e.g. Cygwin=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Ctext=E2=80=9D mount op=
tion hack, the crnl-glob feature in Fossil to make it ignore CRs when deter=
mining if a file is =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D, etc.) don=E2=80=99t need to e=
xist under UfW.
>
> Still another example is the unfortunate mismatches in Windows vs POSIX f=
ile locking semantics, as you recently noted in your recent thread complain=
ing about another =E2=80=9Cuseless=E2=80=9D feature, Cygwin=E2=80=99s flock=
() implementation. Again, the insides of the UfW box are completely POSIX, =
not Windows at all, so presumably locking semantics are Linux-native (i.e. =
advisory by default, rather than mandatory), too, so there is no mismatch b=
etween Windows and POSIX semantics. Here, the wall between NT subsystems he=
lps: you can=E2=80=99t have a Windows app and a UfW app fighting for lock c=
ontrol of a single file, since Windows apps can=E2=80=99t even see inside t=
he UfW filesystem.

So far you're enumerating limitations of Cygwin-Win32 interoperability, not=
 limitations of Cygwin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK if you stick to =
(well-written) Cygwin programs and Cygwin filesystem, you don't have to wor=
k around wrong line endings nor strong locks.

> (You could have such a fight through the /mnt/[driveletter] door, but tha=
t=E2=80=99s like arguing that the availability of NFS or SMB locking preven=
ts Linux locking semantics from working correctly.  Conflicts can only occu=
r in the shared filesystem.)

I would like to make the same argument for Cygwin and /cygdrive.

> 4. You=E2=80=99re using Cygwin on Windows to test software that normally =
builds and runs on Linux on a PC where installing Linux or a VM manager isn=
=E2=80=99t an option.  (e.g. A typical corporate locked-down desktop PC.) G=
iven a choice between Cygwin and UfW, both will work

You can install UoW without admin privileges? Or from another POV, you can =
install UoW but not VirtualBox?

> In fact, in such an environment, UfW might have a distinct advantage, bei=
ng available through the Windows Store.  A typical corporate PC lock-down p=
olicy might not restrict installation from the Windows Store (such apps bei=
ng pre-vetted, signed, and therefore =E2=80=9Csafe=E2=80=9D) but might prev=
ent installation of Cygwin, since Cygwin is third-party and doesn=E2=80=99t=
 normally install on a per-user basis.

You're assuming LSW will become pre-installed on these workstations and UoW=
 will become a Windows Store "app". I'm not saying it can't happen, but it =
seems unlikely at the moment.

> (Indeed, iperf3 doesn=E2=80=99t build OOTB on Cygwin due to an API confli=
ct with newlib, a problem that doesn=E2=80=99t impact glibc based systems l=
ike UfW.)

Although practically speaking, Linux is more comfortable because people pri=
marily target Linux, it'd be better to push for programs to be truly POSIX-=
portable instead of furthering the Linux near-monopoly.

> 6. A lot of Unix software runs like a pig under Cygwin due to the user-sp=
ace gyrations Cygwin must go through to implement POSIX semantics under Win=
dows.

Midipix could end up taking the place of the top competitor of LSW/UoW perf=
ormance-wise, while retaining interoperability with Win32.

> 8. All of us who greatly prefer installing software via a command line pa=
ckage manager (e.g. apt, pkg, brew, yum=E2=80=A6) rather than a GUI (e.g. s=
etup.exe) will probably be happier under UfW than on Cygwin.

This is fixable. MSYS2 already has pacman which can do the same. (Thanks to=
 Cygwin developers, among others.)

> 9. A lot of software for Linux simply isn=E2=80=99t portable enough to bu=
ild under Cygwin, and there is no native Windows port.  Such software may d=
o low-level unportable things, include assembly language hacks, etc. that d=
on=E2=80=99t work on Windows, so your only alternative heretofore to run su=
ch software on a Windows box was to run a Linux VM.  (e.g. Node.js, the Ora=
cle JVM (as opposed to Cygwin=E2=80=99s current JVM alternative, gcc-gcj), =
Valgrind, etc.)

This is definitely a win for LSW/UoW, because it goes for Linux compatibili=
ty.

--=20
David Macek


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