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Date:	Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:36:59 -0400
Message-Id:	<199904211136.HAA18711@envy.delorie.com>
From:	DJ Delorie <dj AT delorie DOT com>
To:	cygwin AT sourceware DOT cygnus DOT com
In-reply-to:	<199904210926.CAA05012@shell4.ba.best.com> (message from Glenn
	Spell on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:26:09 -0400 (EDT))
Subject:	Re: running Cygwin shell scripts from a bat file
References:	<199904210926 DOT CAA05012 AT shell4 DOT ba DOT best DOT com>

> > I think that the main problem is that Cygwin and its docs are
> > designed for programmers
> 
> I think that's a fair characterization.

I agree.  Cygwin was designed to be a programming environment.  Only
recently has its stability and popularity increased to the point where
non-programmer usage has become significant.  If anyone wants to help
write non-programmer-aware docs, feel free to volunteer.  Otherwise,
Cygnus will get around to it when it makes business sense to us.

> I also think that Cygnus has developed this list in such a way to
> subtly discourage discussions of user issues and that's
> understandable.

I don't think we're doing anything *subtle* - we're not that
sophisticated, and way to busy.  Anything we do on purpose is going to
be pretty blunt.

My opinion is that this is a cygwin *users* forum.  If you're using
cygwin, you can discuss cygwin issues here.  There's a separate forum
for people developing cygwin itself, there are certainly better forums
for discussing generic unix issues, and each unix utility that cygwin
includes has its own forum, so it's usually in your best interest to
find the best forum for your questions.  We're not going to say "Hey,
you idiot, that's a bash question!  Go find the bash forum and leave
us alone!" but we might suggest that you'll get better results there.

> Another related perception that I have about the whole deal is that
> Cygnus would like for Cygwin to be the "Linux of the Windows world"
> while employing the "Cathedral Model"... may it never be.

Cygwin was created because it made easier for Cygnus to port their GNU
tools to Windows.  We use the cathedral model because we have a tight
schedule to meet and we must respond to customer complaints - that's
what we do for a living.

We opened up development to the masses (the Bazaar model) because
we're strong believers in the community.  If you want to add
something, there's a good chance we'll add it if it's not going to
cause other problems in the future.  However, we don't *expect* you to
do our job for us, just like you shouldn't *expect* us to do what you
want (unless you've paid for that privilege).  If you need something
done, your choices are: do it yourself (Bazaar model), or pay someone
to do it (Cathedral model).  We support open development, but we can't
force it to happen.  It's up to you.

As for being the Linux of the windows world, I think DJGPP is still
ahead of Cygwin on that one ;-)

> > and all I want to do is run my Unix scripts on files that are on my
> > Win98 machine.
> 
> I think that's a reasonable expectation.

Agreed, but since that's a recent need, the support for that (meaning
documentation and faqs) is still pretty light.  We're geared towards
development since we've been doing it the longest.

> (Schiziod! Were's that name contest webpage?)

http://www.cygnus.com/contest/

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