X-Authentication-Warning: delorie.com: mail set sender to geda-user-bounces using -f X-Recipient: geda-user AT delorie DOT com X-Original-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Wqx10HYS23ItJhKOCcbNjHyOlWgoFeEj0WiCKGzYLeQ=; b=iWIfrqyZABoiLwKjSC4wKDv8vex9G6Lp+mYpNtSrs9OJBshM/sAuAEXDdvaCgqpMii cA43cbkAwLJfBD3FElGzJsCHl3+xzt1X6HrOlmKcS62ix8qa+wKLbFURuazPkW1f3Rv3 wBrgkiQqM6FMpv7b2li2FEM/UoH7XvGboeVILFKEgZFzr2xHbSVyQyJszjDuCLYo2QKk w/qWWrnwolKiiJmQLlbremMHmAYerkqNu00l7wu6hs7IuE5OZf1A7m6ynsrez/Dx8Kj/ +BRzyZE/LrWnIxCwCIVzHKjzTaTy8sQYN83lYBUIoPeEDX80MSCbdEXig5mXN1FVzx3Q uBIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Wqx10HYS23ItJhKOCcbNjHyOlWgoFeEj0WiCKGzYLeQ=; b=U55LQTl8MeByqubdhPwrV3boQzQEMHNPcuQjK7I/WXClJQZ25L6YzRuY3BniQJIBcV tlLw/z8+TcTuvH47msccEnTLD8+jTp1WMZ3nWN+lOdrRp8+VQLlXf0PiSlh+qbRa+o3w 4t2tIg0BIil9C94Gyaly+omXWTjnuJHG+lGOvWk3P6DeFsPedzvOE7p/mg1pKIGWC5vi 8w2fU5TaaDMI+LBG/1fZFJVRNCHET8lgZQ3zfGkNaeNHPmFtKMKxZ1N6dzz95D+qTMBz bSMvnf0Z4CZqnTY44s43/UdrBw2JVHp9ZYltrxlANdqhlercKv58WVG3b1g6E/zs616D 3COw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LnIlrBRsU9SQ+E9IzEnjnw7R8sEsruSRBjMPn29IGH3Omqqaj +utCTSvDPLuH6bbDeeY+JcbPTSMuicqmJ3XeEP+rNaeh X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfrw2GmxcDvDcokFL5Xa/WKXe0M/IDsk/76iWMsD+ra4lQjTHtf+c4l7hu7J2bCxtiMc4Sx5Xs+0D6XY3CpuQ= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:66d6:: with SMTP id d22mr1191448uaq.77.1603806156734; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20201026155510 DOT 23661 DOT qmail AT stuge DOT se> <7df63bf7-7216-c15f-0b56-2b712705cc90 AT linetec DOT nl> In-Reply-To: <7df63bf7-7216-c15f-0b56-2b712705cc90@linetec.nl> From: "Chad Parker (parker DOT charles AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 09:42:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [geda-user] PCB, 2 parts physically in the same place To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000042c4b105b2a73864" Reply-To: geda-user AT delorie DOT com --00000000000042c4b105b2a73864 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't see any reason why pcb *shouldn't* allow overlapping parts, so long as other design rules aren't violated. And anyway, it's somewhat difficult to define what that actually means. Overlapping bounding boxes, for example, is not necessarily an indicator of parts that might interfere with each other. The one thing that I would like to see at some point is the addition of keepout zones. If you were to add a keepout zone to a part and then try to put something else inside that zone, I would like that to generate a warning. At some point I would also like pcb to start throwing warnings about overlapping holes, or holes too close together, or too close to the edge of the board. --Chad On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM Richard Rasker (rasker AT linetec DOT nl) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > Op 26-10-20 om 16:55 schreef Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via > geda-user AT delorie DOT com]: > > gene glick (geneglick AT optonline DOT net) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote: > >> I want to do this on purpose. One part, a 2X16 character display has 10 > >> connections to the PCB. Problem is, they are just holes. It is meant to > >> have a 10 pin header on the PCB, and then the display gets positioned > over > >> the header and soldered in place. > > Rather than having to deal with two footprints on top of each other I'd > > recommend this: > > > > Create one 2X16LCD footprint which has no electrical connections but > > only silk lines+text and any mounting holes (Pin with attribute "hole"). > > I'd recommend to draw silk lines around where the electrical connections > > will go. > > > > Then place one 1x10 header footprint for the electrical connections. > > > > That way you can have both parts in schematic and BOM without having > > redundant connections in the netlist and layout, and no problems with > > two footprints with electrical connections on top of each other. > > This had occurred to me as well, but the major caveat here is alignment: > even a minute unnoticed nudge of either part may spell very serious > trouble. > > At the very least, I'd recommend combining the connector pins and > mounting holes in the same footprint when adopting this approach. After > all, a slightly shifted silk screen symbol isn't much of a problem, but > mounting holes in the wrong place usually boil down to an unusable board. > > > In addition to local simplicity I can imagine that fabs might be unhappy > > or at the very least confused with two drills on top of each other.. > > Yes, that might indeed be an issue, depending on the fab house. > > My standard approach here is actually to NOT use a separate header > symbol in the schematic, but simply put a warning in the display > symbol's comment attribute to manually add the header to the bom > afterwards. > > My final boms (LibreOffice spreadsheet files) contain lots of other > parts that aren't entered in the schematic anyway, e.g. mounting studs, > washers, screws, and nuts, bezels, brackets etcetera. So manually adding > this header is a minor issue. > > But it is interesting to see that PCB allows these overlapping parts. > > Richard > > --00000000000042c4b105b2a73864 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't see any reason why pcb *shouldn't* al= low overlapping parts, so long as other design rules aren't violated. A= nd anyway, it's somewhat difficult to define what that actually means. = Overlapping bounding boxes, for example, is not necessarily an indicator of= parts that might interfere with each other.

The o= ne thing that I would like to see at some point is the addition of keepout = zones. If you were to add a keepout zone to a part and then try to put some= thing else inside that zone, I would like that to generate a warning.

At some point I would also like pcb to start throwi= ng warnings about overlapping holes, or holes too close together, or too cl= ose to the edge of the board.

--Chad

On T= ue, Oct 27, 2020 at 7:05 AM Richard Rasker (rasker AT linetec DOT nl) [via = geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <ged= a-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
Op 26-10-20 om 16:55 schreef Peter Stuge (peter AT stuge DOT se) [via
geda-user AT delori= e.com]:
> gene glick (geneglick AT optonline DOT net) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] wrote:
>> I want to do this on purpose. One part, a 2X16 character display h= as 10
>> connections to the PCB. Problem is, they are just holes. It is mea= nt to
>> have a 10 pin header on the PCB, and then the display gets positio= ned over
>> the header and soldered in place.
> Rather than having to deal with two footprints on top of each other I&= #39;d
> recommend this:
>
> Create one 2X16LCD footprint which has no electrical connections but > only silk lines+text and any mounting holes (Pin with attribute "= hole").
> I'd recommend to draw silk lines around where the electrical conne= ctions
> will go.
>
> Then place one 1x10 header footprint for the electrical connections. >
> That way you can have both parts in schematic and BOM without having > redundant connections in the netlist and layout, and no problems with<= br> > two footprints with electrical connections on top of each other.

This had occurred to me as well, but the major caveat here is alignment: even a minute unnoticed nudge of either part may spell very serious trouble= .

At the very least, I'd recommend combining the connector pins and
mounting holes in the same footprint when adopting this approach. After all, a slightly shifted silk screen symbol isn't much of a problem, but=
mounting holes in the wrong place usually boil down to an unusable board.
> In addition to local simplicity I can imagine that fabs might be unhap= py
> or at the very least confused with two drills on top of each other..
Yes, that might indeed be an issue, depending on the fab house.

My standard approach here is actually to NOT use a separate header
symbol in the schematic, but simply put a warning in the display
symbol's comment attribute to manually add the header to the bom afterw= ards.

My final boms (LibreOffice spreadsheet files) contain lots of other
parts that aren't entered in the schematic anyway, e.g. mounting studs,=
washers, screws, and nuts, bezels, brackets etcetera. So manually adding this header is a minor issue.

But it is interesting to see that PCB allows these overlapping parts.

Richard

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